From: "Monte Holder" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:antiques road show Date: 01 Mar 2004 08:33:12 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- >Of course most of those appraisals wouldn't be nearly as > high if the guy appraising it was trying to buy it. Every time I watch that show I say several times "Get out your check book pal, this sucker is YOURs!" Monte Holder ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 01 Mar 2004 17:48:46 -0700 --------------070000020909040504050605 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...and the alternative that keeps to a more period correct protection is do what Lewis and Clark Did...travel with 37 others with black powder firearms. Lions, like that grizzly in the northern rockies in '02, are ambush hunters. Sparks Ben wrote: >>>Ok, at the expense of sounding like a total greenhorn, I would like some >>>advice on fur trade era period correct firearm recommendation for >>>protection from mountain lions and black bears.> >>> >>> > > >Hi, >No quite "fur trade era" but I'd carry a large caliber BP revolver if I >wanted to be somewhat period correct....my Colt Navy 1851 comes to mind...44 >caliber and would give you five shots...always carry one chamber empty...and >should be able to take care of most situations. Black bear and cougars >usually avoid contact with humans so it's a rare occurance when it happens. >When just hiking or 4 wheeling in the mountains I usually carry my Ruger >Security Six .357 magnum with a heavy loaded cartridge...158 grain jacketed >hollowpoint. It's light, small and easy to carry and would take care of most >situations handily. > >To be period correct you probably should use a large caliber pistol...single >shot, flint or percussion......but if it came to a life threatening >situation I'd want more than one shot...and to heck with period correct. > >But like beaverboy suggests....whatever you take with you...practice with it >until you're proficient. Twenty shots won't help if you don't hit where you >want to. > >Just my two cents, >Ben > > >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > --------------070000020909040504050605 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...and the alternative that keeps to a more period correct protection is do what Lewis and Clark Did...travel with 37 others with black powder firearms.

Lions, like that grizzly in the northern rockies in '02, are ambush hunters.
Sparks

Ben wrote:

Ok, at the expense of sounding like a total greenhorn, I would like some
advice on fur trade era period correct firearm recommendation for
protection from mountain lions and black bears.>



Hi,
No quite "fur trade era" but I'd carry a large caliber BP revolver if I
wanted to be somewhat period correct....my Colt Navy 1851 comes to mind...44
caliber and would give you five shots...always carry one chamber empty...and
should be able to take care of most situations. Black bear and cougars
usually avoid contact with humans so it's a rare occurance when it happens.
When just hiking or 4 wheeling in the mountains I usually carry my Ruger
Security Six .357 magnum with a heavy loaded cartridge...158 grain jacketed
hollowpoint. It's light, small and easy to carry and would take care of most
situations handily.

To be period correct you probably should use a large caliber pistol...single
shot, flint or percussion......but if it came to a life threatening
situation I'd want more than one shot...and to heck with period correct.

But like beaverboy suggests....whatever you take with you...practice with it
until you're proficient.  Twenty shots won't help if you don't hit where you
want to.

Just my two cents,
Ben

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------070000020909040504050605-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 01 Mar 2004 16:59:48 -0800 While your trying to decide what gun to carry, remember this. Many years back I read a story written by some friends who having killed a bear decided to see if a bp revolver would be good medicine against a black bear or bigger. The revolver (a .44 cal. I think) loaded to it's max just bounced the balls off the skull. Would hardly penetrate the hide and into the vitals. Maybe a Walker, the first Magnum, but the other revolvers where for wounding men and making them casualties of war that someone had to take care of or put them out of the fight. If you want primitive, I'll vote for the trade gun and one that is very reliable. If your not worried about pc then there are some good suggestions already made. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:17 PM > > > > > Ok, at the expense of sounding like a total greenhorn, I would like some > > > advice on fur trade era period correct firearm recommendation for > > > protection from mountain lions and black bears.> > > > > > Hi, > No quite "fur trade era" but I'd carry a large caliber BP revolver if I > wanted to be somewhat period correct....my Colt Navy 1851 comes to mind...44 > caliber and would give you five shots...always carry one chamber empty...and > should be able to take care of most situations. Black bear and cougars > usually avoid contact with humans so it's a rare occurance when it happens. > When just hiking or 4 wheeling in the mountains I usually carry my Ruger > Security Six .357 magnum with a heavy loaded cartridge...158 grain jacketed > hollowpoint. It's light, small and easy to carry and would take care of most > situations handily. > > To be period correct you probably should use a large caliber pistol...single > shot, flint or percussion......but if it came to a life threatening > situation I'd want more than one shot...and to heck with period correct. > > But like beaverboy suggests....whatever you take with you...practice with it > until you're proficient. Twenty shots won't help if you don't hit where you > want to. > > Just my two cents, > Ben > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List:antiques road show Date: 01 Mar 2004 18:51:04 -0700 (MST) Exactly! Talk is cheap. When I was buying fur we had to be ready to back up the BS with cash! And then answer to the boss and hope you graded them right. Buying is buying be it fur or antiques or anything. Then there was always still some other furbuyer that would tell the trapper afterwards how much more he "would" have paid for his fur. You want to get into a grazy business get into the fur business! My company bought fur for over a hundred years in the northwest and we treated trappers right. You don't stay in business that long by screwing people. But there are always trappers that figures they got beat. Even though no one is making them sell their fur. Find a good furbuyer you like, and you trust and stick with him. Treat him right and he'll treat you right. Sorry about ramblin' on, bb >>Of course most of those appraisals wouldn't be nearly as >> high if the guy appraising it was trying to buy it. > > Every time I watch that show I say several times "Get out your check book > pal, this sucker is YOURs!" > > Monte Holder > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 01 Mar 2004 22:19:55 EST --part1_64.3b437e44.2d75575b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/1/04 5:02:07 PM, amm1719@charter.net writes: > my Colt Navy 1851 comes to mind...44 > caliber > Hmmmm.... I always thought the "Navy" was a .36cal, and the "Army" was the .44cal... but then them guns are post-1840, so don't listen to me. Magpie --part1_64.3b437e44.2d75575b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/1/04 5:02:07 PM, amm1719@charter.net writes:

my Colt Navy 1851 com= es to mind...44
caliber

Hmmmm.... I always thought the "Navy" was a .36cal, and the "Army" was the .= 44cal... but then them guns are post-1840, so don't listen to me.
Magpie --part1_64.3b437e44.2d75575b_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 01 Mar 2004 23:31:22 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/1/2004 7:21:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, SWcushing@aol.com writes: I always thought the "Navy" was a .36cal, and the "Army" was the .44cal... but then them guns are post-1840, so don't listen to me. Colt, An American Legend (R. L. Wilson, 1985, Pg 364) indicates that although the production 'Navy' was a .36, there were conversions to .31 and .44 by Thuer from 1868-71 and also .38 rimfire and centerfire conversions done by Colt from 1872-78. Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 3/1/2004 7:21:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, SWcushing= @aol.com writes:

I always thought the "Navy" was a .36= cal, and the "Army" was the .44cal... but then them guns are post-1840, so d= on't listen to me.

Colt, An American=20= Legend (R. L. Wilson, 1985, Pg 364) indicates that although the pr= oduction 'Navy' was a .36, there were conversions to .31 and .44 by Thu= er from 1868-71 and also .38 rimfire and centerfire conversio= ns done by Colt from 1872-78.

&n= bsp;

Barney

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stuart Family" Subject: MtMan-List: More Information Please Date: 01 Mar 2004 22:19:45 -0700 Well, I am back again asking for more information to help get my brain more into this mountain man adventure. But I am also looking for the information in a special format. My company is sending me away for a while and I won't be around for the summer and I will have limited resources...mostly the computer/internet so I am looking for information that I can reach there. I also have a specific area of focus...not only do I want to read the journals of those who were in the west but I would also like to find a much information about the native americans that were living in the area at the same time. I want to learn about the significance of clothing items, jewelry and legends. I have been doing some reading lately and have found the ties between the two cultures fascinating. Any information on the people that time would be great. Ed Stuart Great Falls MT ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 00:25:06 EST --part1_106.2d01280c.2d7574b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/1/04 8:32:02 PM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: >=20 > there were conversions to .31 and .44=A0by Thuer=A0from 1868-71=A0and also= =A0.38=20 > rimfire and centerfire conversions done by Colt from 1872-78.=A0=A0 >=20 > =A0 > Thanks Barney.... told ya I didn't have a clue on Colts.... Magpie > --part1_106.2d01280c.2d7574b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/1/04 8:32:02 PM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes:

= there were conversions to .31 and .44=A0by Thuer=A0from 1868-71=A0and als= o=A0.38 rimfire and centerfire conversions done by Colt from 1872-78.=A0=A0<= /B>

=A0

Thanks Barney.... told ya I didn't have a clue on Colts....&= lt;G>

Magpie
--part1_106.2d01280c.2d7574b2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 01:29:24 EST --part1_127.3bbe18a7.2d7583c4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen I've sat back and read this line for as long as I could handle it without saying something. The best protection from bears and cats is sitting on top of your shoulders and one only has to use it to help keep ya out of trouble. As a rule when they do attack it is from ambush or it happens so fast one has no time to react so all those modern guns are really only good for your peace of mind. Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time then any of us will ever face in our life times and they did it with muzzleloading flint locks. Sure some got chewed up but more of them died by drowning then by bears, cats or Indians. When I am riding through Grizz country I carry my 12 gage trade gun that has been converted to cap lock (I may be fool hardy but I ain't stupid I want to make sure that the one shot I have if I have time to use it, goes off) loaded with buck and ball. I've never had to use it in self defense but I have had to keep it close at hand a time or two just to make me feal safe. As for Cat's it does not take much knock down power to take one of them down. If ya have only one shot then ya better make it count ether on the critter or on your self so ya don't have to suffer much. (VBG) As a rule In an area where cats are hunted regularly they are very timid and very seldom seen. It is mainly in areas where they have stop the hunting of cats that there has been trouble with them. When in bear and cat country be aware of what is going on around you and when camping in griz country do not cook in your camp where you are going to sleep and hang your food in a tree away from where you sleep and you should not have much trouble with them. The best protection in Grizz country is a good horse they will sense the bear long before you do. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_127.3bbe18a7.2d7583c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen
I've sat back and read this line for as long as I could handle it withou= t saying something. The best protection from bears and cats is sitting on to= p of your shoulders and one only has to use it to help keep ya out of troubl= e.
As a rule when they do attack it is from ambush or it happens so fast on= e has no time to react so all those modern guns are really only good for you= r peace of mind.
Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time th= en any of us will ever face in our life times and they did it with muzzleloa= ding flint locks.=20
Sure some got chewed up but more of them died by drowning then by bears,= cats or Indians.
When I am riding through Grizz country I carry my 12 gage trade gun that= has been converted to cap lock (I may be fool hardy but I ain't stupid I wa= nt to make sure that the one shot I have if I have time to use it, goes off)= loaded with buck and ball. I've never had to use it in self defense but I h= ave had to keep it close at hand a time or two just to make me feal safe.=20
As for Cat's it does not take much knock down power to take one of them=20= down.
If ya have only one shot then ya better make it count ether on the critt= er or on your self so ya don't have to suffer much. (VBG)=20
As a rule In an area where cats are hunted regularly they are very timi= d and very seldom seen. It is mainly in areas where they have stop the hunti= ng of cats that there has been trouble with them.=20

When in bear and cat country be aware of what is going on around you and= when camping in griz country do not cook in your camp where you are going t= o sleep and hang your food in a tree away from where you sleep and you shoul= d not have much trouble with them. The best protection in Grizz country is a= good horse they will sense the bear long before you do.=20
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot --part1_127.3bbe18a7.2d7583c4_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Boyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 06:36:36 -0800 (PST) --0-1969272619-1078238196=:31210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have to agree with you Crazy on cats, they don't need much to put them down. My cousin has shot several when running his two dogs after coons with a single shot 22 cal. rifle. His neighbor has killed over 30 cats in 40 years, the largest percentage went down with a 22 cal. pistol and long rifle ammo. I know this is true as I have seen pictures of the neighbors cats as well as being with my cousin and killing one of those cats years ago near Loveland Colorado. Really surprised me that their skulls weren't thicker. Nate GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: Gentlemen I've sat back and read this line for as long as I could handle it without saying something. The best protection from bears and cats is sitting on top of your shoulders and one only has to use it to help keep ya out of trouble. As a rule when they do attack it is from ambush or it happens so fast one has no time to react so all those modern guns are really only good for your peace of mind. Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time then any of us will ever face in our life times and they did it with muzzleloading flint locks. Sure some got chewed up but more of them died by drowning then by bears, cats or Indians. When I am riding through Grizz country I carry my 12 gage trade gun that has been converted to cap lock (I may be fool hardy but I ain't stupid I want to make sure that the one shot I have if I have time to use it, goes off) loaded with buck and ball. I've never had to use it in self defense but I have had to keep it close at hand a time or two just to make me feal safe. As for Cat's it does not take much knock down power to take one of them down. If ya have only one shot then ya better make it count ether on the critter or on your self so ya don't have to suffer much. (VBG) As a rule In an area where cats are hunted regularly they are very timid and very seldom seen. It is mainly in areas where they have stop the hunting of cats that there has been trouble with them. When in bear and cat country be aware of what is going on around you and when camping in griz country do not cook in your camp where you are going to sleep and hang your food in a tree away from where you sleep and you should not have much trouble with them. The best protection in Grizz country is a good horse they will sense the bear long before you do. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-1969272619-1078238196=:31210 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I have to agree with you Crazy on cats, they don't need much to put them down. My cousin has shot several when running his two dogs after coons with a single shot 22 cal. rifle. His neighbor has killed over 30 cats in 40 years, the largest percentage went down with a 22 cal. pistol and long rifle ammo.

I know this is true as I have seen pictures of the neighbors cats as well as being with my cousin and killing one of those cats years ago near Loveland Colorado. Really surprised me that their skulls weren't thicker.

Nate

GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote:

Gentlemen
I've sat back and read this line for as long as I could handle it without saying something. The best protection from bears and cats is sitting on top of your shoulders and one only has to use it to help keep ya out of trouble.
As a rule when they do attack it is from ambush or it happens so fast one has no time to react so all those modern guns are really only good for your peace of mind.
Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time then any of us will ever face in our life times and they did it with muzzleloading flint locks.
Sure some got chewed up but more of them died by drowning then by bears, cats or Indians.
When I am riding through Grizz country I carry my 12 gage trade gun that has been converted to cap lock (I may be fool hardy but I ain't stupid I want to make sure that the one shot I have if I have time to use it, goes off) loaded with buck and ball. I've never had to use it in self defense but I have had to keep it close at hand a time or two just to make me feal safe.
As for Cat's it does not take much knock down power to take one of them down.
If ya have only one shot then ya better make it count ether on the critter or on your self so ya don't have to suffer much. (VBG)
As a rule In an area where cats are hunted regularly they are very timid and very seldom seen. It is mainly in areas where they have stop the hunting of cats that there has been trouble with them.

When in bear and cat country be aware of what is going on around you and when camping in griz country do not cook in your camp where you are going to sleep and hang your food in a tree away from where you sleep and you should not have much trouble with them. The best protection in Grizz country is a good horse they will sense the bear long before you do.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-1969272619-1078238196=:31210-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 10:27:59 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40041.08ABAF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time = then any of us will ever face in our life times and they >did it with = muzzleloading flint locks.=20 Not to be argumentative here, CC... but that is the point... "Back = Then"... This is 2004, and granted, we are trying to portray that time = frame, but there is no sense in taking chances. I like the dbl bbl = shotgun idea... no having to rack the slide for the second shot... but I = still like the idea of my .44 Mag on my hip. True, it may be only for my = peace of mind, but they... thats what counts... In all my treks = in the woods hunting here in SouthEastern WV, I have only seen one small = (200-250 lb) black bear, and no big cats. But just the same, I still had = my .44 Mag available... Regards, Ad Miller ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40041.08ABAF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Those = Mountain Men=20 back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time then any of us will = ever face=20 in our life times and they >did it with muzzleloading flint locks.=20

Not to be=20 argumentative here, CC... but that is the point... "Back Then"... This = is 2004,=20 and granted, we are trying to portray that time frame, but there is no = sense in=20 taking chances. I like the dbl bbl shotgun idea... no having to rack the = slide=20 for the second shot... but I still like the idea of my .44 Mag on my = hip. True,=20 it may be only for my peace of mind, but they... thats what counts...=20 <grins> In all my treks in the woods hunting here in = SouthEastern=20 WV, I have only seen one small (200-250 lb) black bear, and no big cats. = But=20 just the same, I still had my .44 Mag = available...

Regards,

Ad=20 Miller

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40041.08ABAF40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 12:45:31 -0500 Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion, both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun in percussion. A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will understand: Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are they flintlock only? When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading both round ball and buckshot at the same time? For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a "buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know this is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)? Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?) maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer? Thanks for your patience with me. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Lessman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 10:37:27 -0800 Historically when one sees the reference to "gun" (i.e. NW gun/Trade gun) they are generally referring to a smoothbore. Yes, you can shoot both round ball or shot.....seperately or at the same time, which opens up an entirely new subject of the loading of buck and ball. Trade guns are not flintlock only and can be had in percussion also, although most tradeguns seen, traditional come in flint. A trade gun has the advantage of firing multitude of fairly large projectiles at the same time, which would be considered a large advantage over a rifled gun firing a single round ball. There are several makers of trade guns, Caywood, Northstar West, TVM are three that immediately come to mind, but if you're not in a rush a custom builder could also fit the bill. Of course a good 10 gauge double barrel percussion gun from Cabelas would also be very good bear medicine. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AM > Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion, both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun in percussion. > > A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will understand: > > Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are they flintlock only? > > When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading both round ball and buckshot at the same time? > > For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a "buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know this is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)? > > Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?) maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer? > > Thanks for your patience with me. > > Lou > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 13:16:55 -0700 (MST) There always seem to be two groups on the Grizz gun arguement. The group that has never seen Grizz or had encounters with them and they always seem to be the ones who suggest wearing bear bells, bear repellant, and perhaps a belt gun. Then there are the group that have run into Grizz or had encounters with them and they all seem to suggest you pack a big fricken gun at all times in Grizz country. And not a single shot! If you don't kill that Grizz with one shot and he figures out who shot him and he gets a hold of you...! Remember the scene in Jaws when the sheriff finally sees the big shark up close? The first words out of his mouth are "We need a bigger boat!". Kind of the same deal. I take a few hikes every year in Grizz country up on the Front Range and run into other hikers. One guy once asked my why I was packing a .12ga pump. He didn't think I should worry about Grizz attacks. I just politely said he could do what he wants and I'll do what I want. I even hiked with a group of Sierra Club members who were taking a hike on the Front. Boy they freaked out when I strapped on my .44! They tried to talk me out of taking it. I told her it was National Forest in Grizz country and I'll do whatever I want. They got over it. You can still enjoy Mother Nature while packing some heavy firepower. Hey, you want to pack a single shot or flinter in Grizz country more power to you. But I bet your opinion changes after you run into a Grizz or cut some fresh Grizz tracks! It does make you feel alive! I hate camping and hiking in Grizz country but I'm glad we still have lots of Grizz in the lower 48. I'd worry more about a cat sneaking up on you then I would a black bear. >>Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time >> then any of us will ever face in our life times and they >did it with >> muzzleloading flint locks. > > Not to be argumentative here, CC... but that is the point... "Back > Then"... This is 2004, and granted, we are trying to portray that time > frame, but there is no sense in taking chances. I like the dbl bbl shotgun > idea... no having to rack the slide for the second shot... but I still > like the idea of my .44 Mag on my hip. True, it may be only for my peace > of mind, but they... thats what counts... In all my treks in the > woods hunting here in SouthEastern WV, I have only seen one small (200-250 > lb) black bear, and no big cats. But just the same, I still had my .44 Mag > available... > > Regards, > > Ad Miller > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 13:26:58 -0700 (MST) > Sure some got chewed up but more of them died by drowning then by bears, > cats or Indians. Crazy, Are you sure of this statistic? More of them died by drowning then by Indians? I can't think of one MM that drowned right off the top of my head but can think of many that died at the hands of Indians. Two alone from the L&C expedition and they paddled 4000 miles of river safely. Potts was paddling a canoe when the Blackfeet killed him. I don't think he was worried about drowning. Have you researched this? bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 15:55:34 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/2/2004 12:17:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: I'd worry more about a cat sneaking up on you then I would a black bear Had a discussion with a Ranger here in So Cal re: defense from large cats and Black Bear (certainly nowhere near the danger or risk of a Grizz) and she recommended an air horn, as she had seen it used VERY effectively against both Mountain Lion and Blackies. As I was camped in a YMCA camp with 180 children, doing living history presentations, I didn't want to keep my .44 special at hand, so went to a local sporting goods store and got a small air horn, which does make one hellova lot of noise. I also gave one to the Camp Director to keep for use in the future. Even though there was plenty of sightings and tracks, I've always had a question of the effectiveness of noise as a deterrent. Anybody have any experiences or thoughts in this regard? Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 3/2/2004 12:17:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, beaverbo= y@sofast.net writes:

I'd worry more about a cat sneaking up on you=20= then I would a black bear

Had a discussion w= ith a Ranger here in So Cal re: defense from large cats and Black Bear (cert= ainly nowhere near the danger or risk of a Grizz) and she recommended an air= horn, as she had seen it used VERY effectively against both Mountain Lion a= nd Blackies.

&n= bsp;

As I was camp= ed in a YMCA camp with 180 children, doing living history presentations= , I didn't want to keep my .44 special at hand, so went to a local sporting=20= goods store and got a small air horn, which does make one hellova lot of noi= se. I also gave one to the Camp Director to keep for use in the future.=

&n= bsp;

Even though there=20= was plenty of sightings and tracks, I've always had a question of the effect= iveness of noise as a deterrent. Anybody have any experiences or thoughts in this r= egard?

&n= bsp;

Barney

&n= bsp;

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larson Harsey Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 13:31:31 -0800 (PST) --0-636015978-1078263091=:24168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I hit the wrong button and deleted the message from "Livining the Past" before I could respond. A gun makes a loud noise if you want also, plus the second shot has something to go with it if the bear hasn't read all the studies on what they pose to do when they here loud noises, I here some of them can't read at all............... Nature has no rules. I've hunted black bear on the North Carolina coast near the other banks. Two sows we took in the fall a couple of years ago were 275 to 300 pounds each. The brush is thicker than anything I have ever seen before. The bears are so quite, if they wanted you on foot, there would be no chance for ya. The boars get up to 700 lbs with 500 lbs being real common. The record was something like 850+/- a few years ago, lots of good habitat in that area. I always had a .44 mag. right in front with FMJs just for comfort. My .54 flint rifle was always ready, but I was real glad I had my ruger when I turned around while slipping up the cut and saw 2 bears standing not 35 yards away, looking at me, right where I had walked thru. Yes makes living real exciting, you can almost hear the dust fall, things get so clear and quiet. Just my 2 cents. Can you attach pictures to this list? I have one of a sow and cub I took while I was riding under a tripod stand on a 4 wheeler all alone. They ain't scar't for nothing. A picture is worth a few hundred words at least. Exciting indeed! Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-636015978-1078263091=:24168 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I hit the wrong button and deleted the message from "Livining the Past" before I could respond. A gun makes a loud noise if you want also, plus the second shot has something to go with it if the bear hasn't read all the studies on what they pose to do when they here loud noises, I here some of them can't read at all............... Nature has no rules.

I've hunted black bear on the North Carolina coast near the other banks. Two sows we took in the fall a couple of years ago were 275 to 300 pounds each.  The brush is thicker than anything I have ever seen before. The bears are so quite, if they wanted you on foot, there would be no chance for ya. The boars get up to 700 lbs with 500 lbs being real common.  The record was something like 850+/- a few years ago, lots of good habitat in that area. I always had a .44 mag. right in front with FMJs just for comfort. My .54 flint rifle was always ready, but I was real glad I had my ruger when I turned around while slipping up the cut and saw 2 bears standing not 35 yards away, looking at me, right where I had walked thru. Yes makes living real exciting, you can almost hear the dust fall, things get so clear and quiet. Just my 2 cents. Can you attach pictures to this list? I have one of a sow and cub I took while I was riding under a tripod stand on a 4 wheeler all alone. They ain't scar't for nothing. A picture is worth a few hundred words at least.  Exciting indeed!
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-636015978-1078263091=:24168-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 17:03:57 -0500 I took a look at the Caywood Guns website and it looks like the majority of the guns are sold with barrel sizes of between 20 - 28 gauge. What gauge smoothbore trade gun should I be looking for? Isn't their an inverse relationship between guage and caliber (the larger the caliber the lower the guage). I thought somebody a 10-12 guage trade gun? What am I missing? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 15:20:40 -0700 (MST) Historically most trade guns were .28 ga. But most today use a .20 gage. You can get a .12 ga trade gun made out of a Brown Bess, Dixie and a few others sell them. .20ga is 20 balls per pound of lead. It is also a .62 caliber. .12ga is 12 balls per pound and I think .75 caliber. I have used a Northstar West trade gun for 6 years and it has never let me down. Danny Caywood knows his stuff too. Either one is a fine choice. bb > I took a look at the Caywood Guns website and it looks like the majority > of the guns are sold with barrel sizes of between 20 - 28 gauge. What > gauge smoothbore trade gun should I be looking for? Isn't their an > inverse relationship between guage and caliber (the larger the caliber the > lower the guage). I thought somebody a 10-12 guage trade gun? What am I > missing? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 17:20:55 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/2/2004 1:32:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, camperfox428@yahoo.com writes: A gun makes a loud noise if you want also, plus the second shot has something to go with it if the bear hasn't read all the studies on what they pose to do when they here loud noises I totally agree, but as I was camped in a YMCA camp with 180+ kids and staff, I wasn't comfortable about discharging a firearm for any reason. Although the lady Ranger was very positive about it (the air horn), I was curious if anybody else was aware of this solution. I personally prefer my 2" barrel .44 Special, loaded with Glazers, FMJ's, Hollow Points, Black Hornets or any other 'wall-knocker downers' in it! ;) Barn Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 3/2/2004 1:32:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, camperfox= 428@yahoo.com writes:

A gun makes a loud noise if you want also= , plus the second shot has something to go with it if the bear hasn't read a= ll the studies on what they pose to do when they here loud noises

I totally agree, b= ut as I was camped in a YMCA camp with 180+ kids and staff, I = ;wasn't comfortable about discharging a firearm for any reason.

&n= bsp;

Although the lady=20= Ranger was very positive about it (the air horn), I was curious if = ;anybody else was aware of this solution.

&n= bsp;

I personally prefe= r my 2" barrel .44 Special, loaded with Glazers, FMJ's, Hollow Poi= nts, Black Hornets or any other 'wall-knocker downers' in it! ;)

&n= bsp;

Barn
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 16:51:44 -0600 The most important thing to note from all these messages is -- PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!! Not once or twice but every week year after year. I doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience with firearms so you should probably take a sanctioned course or two and then shoot every week for the next few years. Until you've burned many thousands of rounds you really don't know what you are doing. If you are going to depend on a high power pistol then you need to start shooting 250 rounds per week, or more. Start with a .22 and really learn to shoot before you try a .44 mag; work your way up. If you are inexperienced I would strongly discourage any pistol unless you are really ready to commit to extensive TRAINING. Even if you decide to carry a 12 ga. you need to learn to use it without needing to think about how to use it safely and accurately. If you choose a percussion gun you need to practice still more and if you chose flintlock practice lots and lots more. If you are going to bet-your-life on something you had best skew the odds every tad you can to your favor. A false confidence inspired by carrying a weapon you don't really know how to use can get you killed. Beaverboy made a real good point about always carrying a serious knife or three; learn to use it and keep it scary sharp. Food, scat, candy, garbage, cologne, menses; all that and more can get you killed in Ol' Ephraim's domain. Stupidity is the most dangerous foe. Herders bell sheep: bears and lions like lamb and mutton. Pavlovian response? Perhaps? SnakeOyl... At 05:26 PM 02/29/04, you wrote: >Ok, at the expense of sounding like a total greenhorn, I would like some >advice on fur trade era period correct firearm recommendation for >protection from mountain lions and black bears. In particular, I am >looking for a firearm that I can carry with me on jaunts in the >mountains,that will give me effective protection but not be overly >cumbersome. Since many of these jaunts are merely exploring the mountains >utilizing tools and trappings of the mountain men, and not hunting trips, >I wanted a firearm that is primarily defensive. I have spent a lot of >time in the woods without a firearm and felt very comfortable. But >recently with mountain lion sightings increasing in frequency and with >number of fatal attacks in the local foothills (and to provide comfort to >a concerned wife), I wanted to get your recommendation. Will a high >caliber pistol do? Let me know your thoughts. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 14:51:14 -0800 Lou, If you don't listen to bb then you probably won't listen to me either so what bb said is gospel in my book. But about buck and ball. Not very accurate, not very powerful compared to the velocity and energy in one bore sized ball. Multiple shots are better than one. Flint is more reliable than percussion but shouldn't even be a consideration in bear country. Go 12 ga. pump. With the plug out and slugs. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 18:06:14 EST --part1_ce.473f5602.2d766d66_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beaverboy There was a well research article on the numbers of reported death of trappers I read that had the numbers laid out and drowning was the leading killer in the mountains by fare. Right now I can't remember where I read it but it's out there and so are the numbers. Most of those men did not swim or swim very well those river crossing and boats plaid hell on the boys back then. You seem to think you are the only one that has been in Grizz country that has seen one up close and has woke up to find fresh Grizz tracks just out side your camp or has cut fresh tracks so fresh that water was still running in to the tracks. I have spent some time in grizz country just about every summer here in Idaho or in Wyoming and yes I have even camped in Montana in grizz country. Where to some is the only place one can find or do anything and I have done it primitive like they did it back then. I have worked as a packer for an out fitter in grizz country I have hunted and ridden in and camp in grizz country. They are a big mean eating machine and can be killed with one shot so long as it is placed in the right spot. It is one thing to fear an animal it is another to respect and understand an animal. I think that going out and camping in grizz country is as close as it gets nowadays to what they had to deal with on a daily bases back then and yes It does make you feel alive! There is one more thing I forgot to mention having one or even better yet two dogs with you in Grizz country is a good idea. They will let you know when they are around and are a good first alert. I also agree with you Back Bears are not as much of a danger as cats or Grizzlies are and I find them to be good eating too, not to say that cat ain't bad eatin. With respect for doing it primitive. Crazy Cyot --part1_ce.473f5602.2d766d66_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beaverboy
There was a well research article on the numbers of reported death of tr= appers I read that had the numbers laid out and drowning was the leading kil= ler in the mountains by fare. Right now I can't remember where I read it but= it's out there and so are the numbers.
Most of those men did not swim or swim very well those river crossing an= d boats plaid hell on the boys back then.
You seem to think you are the only one that has been in Grizz country th= at has seen one up close and has woke up to find fresh Grizz tracks just out= side your camp or has cut fresh tracks so fresh that water was still runnin= g in to the tracks.=20
I have spent some time in grizz country just about every summer here in=20= Idaho or in Wyoming and yes I have even camped in Montana in grizz country.=20= Where to some is the only place one can find or do anything and I have done=20= it primitive like they did it back then.

I have worked as a packer for an out fitter in grizz country I have hunt= ed and ridden in and camp in grizz country. They are a big mean eating machi= ne and can be killed with one shot so long as it is placed in the right spot= .
It is one thing to fear an animal it is another to respect and understan= d an animal.
I think that going out and camping in grizz country is as close as it ge= ts nowadays to what they had to deal with on a daily bases back then and yes= It does make you feel alive!=20

There is one more thing I forgot to mention having one or even better ye= t two dogs with you in Grizz country is a good idea. They will let you know=20= when they are around and are a good first alert.

I also agree with you Back Bears are not as much of a danger as cats or=20= Grizzlies are and I find them to be good eating too, not to say that cat ain= 't bad eatin.
With respect for doing it primitive.
Crazy Cyot --part1_ce.473f5602.2d766d66_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 17:42:11 -0600 Cap't, Unless you are out hunting there is no need to be concerned with accuracy and ballistics. What is required when you only have one shot is massive trauma. Most lion and bear encounters end peaceably, as long as there is distance between you and they aren't already attacking, you can usually get away if you keep your wits about you. I think it helps when you have the simple confidence of being armed (you don't smell of fear). Unless you are face to face under attack, particularly when you only have one shot, there is no excuse for firing that one shot until it is absolutely necessary and absolutely certain to kill. That means it can only be used at extreme close range. It can be a real hard shot to wait for but it is the most certain. There is no one shot you can take at distance with a single ball from a rifle as certain to kill as waiting to get real close with buck and ball. Hence, when I lived in Silvertip country on the ground every night and I could only afford one gun. It was a .69 cal. cut down Charleville loaded with 105 gr. of ff, buckskin-scrap-powder-wad, 14-00 buck, & a grease patched .678 rb for wadding. It will backup pert near anything at close range. I never intended to hunt with and hope the butt is against the ground or a tree if I have to touch another one off. The multiple trauma of buck and ball at very close range offsets any ballistic advantage of a single ball. 15 holes with one really big one is massive trauma at extreme close range. I do agree with you and bb on the 12 ga. as the best choice most of the time. I load alternate 3" magnum slug and 00 buck in mine. With some #6 shells you can often feast on grouse and rabbit and other fine fare. These days I carry two or three .62 flinters when a 12ga. is inappropriate. SnakeOyl... At 04:51 PM 03/02/04, you wrote: >Lou, > >If you don't listen to bb then you probably won't listen to me either so >what bb said is gospel in my book. But about buck and ball. Not very >accurate, not very powerful compared to the velocity and energy in one bore >sized ball. Multiple shots are better than one. Flint is more reliable than >percussion but shouldn't even be a consideration in bear country. Go 12 ga. >pump. With the plug out and slugs. > >Capt. Lahti' > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Lessman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 16:47:44 -0800 LOOK AGAIN...Caywood does make a 12 gauge turkey gun. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:03 PM > I took a look at the Caywood Guns website and it looks like the majority of the guns are sold with barrel sizes of between 20 - 28 gauge. What gauge smoothbore trade gun should I be looking for? Isn't their an inverse relationship between guage and caliber (the larger the caliber the lower the guage). I thought somebody a 10-12 guage trade gun? What am I missing? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive Survial in the woods Date: 02 Mar 2004 20:05:38 EST --part1_135.2bded4a1.2d768962_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Captain, Let me get this right what you and Beaverboy are saying here. You say: Flint is more reliable than percussion but shouldn't even be a consideration in bear country. Go 12 ga.pump. With the plug out and slugs. There are bears in the woods and that is where we go out and do our primitive camps. So it ok for us to use modern guns at these camps now? Any more Grizz are getting to be in a lot of places here in Idaho, Wyoming and Montana so we need to take modern guns when we go into the woods to do our primitive camps for our protection?!!! When Muzzle loaders were all that the men that we are trying to emulate had for there protection and they faced many more dangers then we do to day in the woods! You are saying we need to be taking modern guns to go in to the woods now to protect our selves with when we try and emulate them? As for Flint locks being more reliable then Percussion all I can say is BS why do you think that the cap lock replaced the Flint Lock, they were MORE reliable. Some times this list can really get out there on some of this stuff. Crazy Cyot --part1_135.2bded4a1.2d768962_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Captain,
Let me get this right what you and Beaverboy are saying here. You= say:
Flint is more reliable than percussion but shouldn't even be a consider= ation in bear country. Go 12 ga.pump. With the plug out and slugs.

There are bears in the woods and that is where we go out and do our prim= itive camps. So it ok for us to use modern guns at these camps now? Any more= Grizz are getting to be in a lot of places here in Idaho, Wyoming and Monta= na so we need to take modern guns when we go into the woods to do our primit= ive camps for our protection?!!!
When Muzzle loaders were all that the men that we are trying to emulate=20= had for there protection and they faced many more dangers then we do to day=20= in the woods!
You are saying we need to be taking modern guns to go in to the woods no= w to protect our selves with when we try and emulate them?
As for Flint locks being more reliable then Percussion all I can say is=20= BS why do you think that the cap lock replaced the Flint Lock, they were MOR= E reliable.
Some times this list can really get out there on some of this stuff.
Crazy Cyot --part1_135.2bded4a1.2d768962_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 17:26:13 -0800 (PST) --0-406354187-1078277173=:8306 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There are other things to consider. Black bear are not grizzly bears. If a black bear attacks assume it wants to eat you. Fight back even if you don't have a gun. Even a child has been known to fight a black bear off; it seems they don't like their supper to squirm around so much. On the other hand a researcher in Canada played dead for a black bear and had all the flesh of both legs and most of one arm eaten away before she figured out playing dead didn't work with blacks. She survived. One arm. Grizzly seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. They like to fight. So don't squirm so much, they might think they can get a fight out of you. I doubt anyone I know could pin a griz anyway. There are other things you won't hear talked about much. I'd hate to be female in grizzly country. Women have "issues" that bears react to. Even without that issue, they smell female. And sex is a no no in griz country. According to one researcher, attacks are often caused by a bear who thinks someone is encroaching on his territory, and I'm not talking about terrain. He said most couples who are attacked were "engaged". The noise thing might work for black bear but I wouldn't trust it with griz. In the early years of the reintroduction program researchers were dropped by helicopter. Policy was to hit the ground running and climb a nearby tree until the noisy chopper left. It seems griz looked at the noise as a challenge. Pioneer researcher, John M. told me about at least one researcher who didn't get to a tree fast enough. Another thing I wonder about is the head wounds found in griz attacks; are they trying to stop the noise by attacking its source? I think if I get attacked I'll try to keep quiet as well as motionless. Could be difficult, but I doubt anyone will be around to hear me anyway. Never shot a griz. If I have to, I think I'm with John Kramer. Big ball, buckshot and lots of powder. It will at least hurt him. If he kills me it will be better than a car wreck. I hate automobiles. Lee Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --0-406354187-1078277173=:8306 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

There are other things to consider.

Black bear are not grizzly bears. If a black bear attacks assume it wants to eat you. Fight back even if you don't have a gun. Even a child has been known to fight a black bear off; it seems they don't like their supper to squirm around so much. On the other hand a researcher in Canada played dead for a black bear and had all the flesh of both legs and most of one arm eaten away before she figured out playing dead didn't work with blacks. She survived. One arm.

Grizzly seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. They like to fight. So don't squirm so much, they might think they can get a fight out of you. I doubt anyone I know could pin a griz anyway.

There are other things you won't hear talked about much. I'd hate to be female in grizzly country. Women have "issues" that bears react to. Even without that issue, they smell female. And sex is a no no in griz country. According to one researcher, attacks are often caused by a bear who thinks someone is encroaching on his territory, and I'm not talking about terrain. He said most couples who are attacked were "engaged".

The noise thing might work for black bear but I wouldn't trust it with griz. In the early years of the reintroduction program researchers were dropped by helicopter. Policy was to hit the ground running and climb a nearby tree until the noisy chopper left. It seems griz looked at the noise as a challenge. Pioneer researcher, John M. told me about at least one researcher who didn't get to a tree fast enough. Another thing I wonder about is the head wounds found in griz attacks; are they trying to stop the noise by attacking its source? I think if I get attacked I'll try to keep quiet as well as motionless. Could be difficult, but I doubt anyone will be around to hear me anyway.

Never shot a griz. If I have to, I think I'm with John Kramer. Big ball, buckshot and lots of powder. It will at least hurt him. If he kills me it will be better than a car wreck. I hate automobiles.

Lee


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --0-406354187-1078277173=:8306-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 02 Mar 2004 20:01:40 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C40091.2D9F77A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beaverboy said, That reminds me of the guy that made a number of documentaries about = his living with grizzlies in Alaska. He would get real close to them and = talk to them. He claimed he was protected because he had a "spiritual = relationship" with the grizz. Well, recently he and his girl friend were eaten by grizz while = camping. They both now have a very real spiritual relationship with = brother bear. Lee Teter said, Lee, I dunno 'bout that. I can't speak from personal experience but = I can read. And I have read plenty about grizz. My son sent me a couple = books about grizz encounters in Alaska when he lived up there. And about = the only thing I can deduce that is predictable about grizz is their = unpredictability. A big, mean gun for me. 30-06 semi-auto or shotgun with slug and my = .44 mag. Redhawk as a last chance. Even my (hate to admit it, politically liberal, anti-gun) son = carried a short-barreled 12. ga. pump with slugs on his hikes and camps = in Alaska. BTW, he is an emergency room physician. He has seen the = results of grizz attacks. As for the mountain lion thing. They are becoming problems in areas = close to cities where hunting has been prohibited. Those cats move fast, = I think a pistol is the best protection in that case. Dunno from experience though. Haven't been there, don't want to be. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C40091.2D9F77A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Beaverboy said, <One guy once asked my why I was packing=20 a
.12ga pump. He didn't think I should worry about Grizz = attacks>

    That reminds me of the guy that made a number of = documentaries about his living with grizzlies in Alaska. He would get = real close=20 to them and talk to them. He claimed he was protected because he had a=20 "spiritual relationship" with the grizz.

    Well, recently he and his girl friend were eaten = by=20 grizz while camping. They both now have a very real spiritual = relationship with=20 brother bear.

    Lee Teter said, <Grizzly seems to be happy to = let=20 sleeping dogs lie. They like to fight. So don't squirm so much, they = might think=20 they can get a fight out of you. >

    Lee, I dunno 'bout that. I can't speak from = personal=20 experience but I can read. And I have read plenty about grizz. My son = sent me a=20 couple books about grizz encounters in Alaska when he lived up there. = And about=20 the only thing I can deduce that is predictable about grizz is their=20 unpredictability.

    A big, mean gun for me. 30-06 semi-auto or = shotgun with=20 slug and my .44 mag. Redhawk as a last chance.

    Even my (hate to admit it, politically liberal,=20 anti-gun) son carried a short-barreled 12. ga. pump with slugs on his = hikes and=20 camps in Alaska. BTW, he is an emergency room physician. He has seen the = results=20 of grizz attacks.

    As for the mountain lion thing. They are = becoming=20 problems in areas close to cities where hunting has been prohibited. = Those cats=20 move fast, I think a pistol is the best protection in that case.

    Dunno from experience though. Haven't been = there, don't=20 want to be.

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C40091.2D9F77A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 19:02:54 -0700 >I've sat back and read this line for as long as I could handle it = without=20 saying something. The best protection from bears and cats is sitting on = top of=20 your shoulders and one only has to use it to help keep ya out of = trouble. < Well said! Here in Canada, where the populace isn't nearly so well = armed, we tend to avoid situations which could lead to a confrontation with bears = or cougars. Last winter, we had the first adult killed by a cougar in the = history of the province: a cross-country skier who was skiing before = dawn--alone. Tragic, but an example of what *not* to do. When you enter Banff National Park, you get the pamphlet "You are in = Bear Country" which is full of advice on how to prevent bear attacks; the = park has taken stringent precautions to keep bears and people apart for the last = two decades, and as a result, there have been few deaths of either bears or = visitors in that time. (I believe that the last human killed by a bear in Alberta = was 8 years ago.) If more people would take proper care of garbage and bird = feeders (illegal in the national park!), there would be fewer encounters between = people and bears. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 18:34:04 -0800 (PST) --0-1944851103-1078281244=:34794 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Angela Gottfred wrote: Here in Canada, where the populace isn't nearly so well armed, we tend to avoid situations which could lead to a confrontation with bears or cougars. Last winter, we had the first adult killed by a cougar in the history of the province: a cross-country skier who was skiing before dawn--alone. Tragic, but an example of what *not* to do. Angela, Every year here in Wyoming, unarmed fishermen are mauled. They're doing nothing but minding their business, trying to pull little fish out of a brook. There are lots of differences between the bears in the mountains here and in Canada. I have firsthand information that bears were, and perhaps still are, being tranquilized with PCP. Do you recall the effect PCP has on human drug addicts? It makes them crazy. They are studied and tranquilized so much here. People in Alaska don't understand the encounters in this area, either. Bears up there don't seem to be as aggressive. Of course, you can still shoot them up there. Anyway, I think management has alot to do with the problem, and not necessarily people not thinking correctly. There are more maulings and encounters in Wyoming than ever hit the newspapers. People are always surprised at the numbers, because they never hear about them. It's something that everyone wants to keep quiet for the sake of tourism. Fact is, there isn't enough room for the population of grizzly bears we have along with the extensive land use by sportsmen. Grizzlies here have learned that gunshots mean food (or a gut pile). They come running. Almost every kill has bear tracks around it. Anyway, this is too complicated. And what's wrong with skiing before dawn? Isn't everyone prepared to die doing something they love? Lee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --0-1944851103-1078281244=:34794 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> wrote:

Here in Canada, where the populace isn't nearly so well armed, we
tend to avoid situations which could lead to a confrontation with bears or
cougars. Last winter, we had the first adult killed by a cougar in the history
of the province: a cross-country skier who was skiing before dawn--alone.
Tragic, but an example of what *not* to do.

Angela,

Every year here in Wyoming, unarmed fishermen are mauled. They're doing nothing but minding their business, trying to pull little fish out of a brook. There are lots of differences between the bears in the mountains here and in Canada. I have firsthand information that bears were, and perhaps still are, being tranquilized with PCP. Do you recall the effect PCP has on human drug addicts? It makes them crazy. They are studied and tranquilized so much here. People in Alaska don't understand the encounters in this area, either. Bears up there don't seem to be as aggressive. Of course, you can still shoot them up there. Anyway, I think management has alot to do with the problem, and not necessarily people not thinking correctly. There are more maulings and encounters in Wyoming than ever hit the newspapers. People are always surprised at the numbers, because they never hear about them. It's something that everyone wants to keep quiet for the sake of tourism.

Fact is, there isn't enough room for the population of grizzly bears we have along with the extensive land use by sportsmen. Grizzlies here have learned that gunshots mean food (or a gut pile). They come running. Almost every kill has bear tracks around it. Anyway, this is too complicated.

And what's wrong with skiing before dawn? Isn't everyone prepared to die doing something they love?

Lee

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --0-1944851103-1078281244=:34794-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James and Sue Stone Subject: MtMan-List: re attrractants Date: 02 Mar 2004 20:08:21 -0700 > > SnakeOyl had it right on attractants: "Food, scat, candy, garbage, cologne, menses; all that and more can get you killed in Ol' Ephraim's domain. Stupidity is the most dangerous foe." Add to that list of attractants breath mints, deodorant and toothpaste. While on a wildfire assignment in Yellowstone a couple years back, Fire Camp was at Fishing Bridge (well noted griz country) we were required to not have any of those additional items in our tents. Granted, these would not likely be found in a pre-1840 camp, but just to point out some of the non-obvious dangers. There were bears in the nearby vicinity, I seen two of 'em. Granted they were together...but they was momma and cub. Sparks > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James and Sue Stone Subject: MtMan-List: Black bears Date: 02 Mar 2004 20:21:46 -0700 Before we get totally off this subject of bear protection, I want to be sure that defending yourself against Griz and lions is prudent, don't write off black bears. Granted, they seem to rank people far down on their list of predatory animals, but not entirely off the list. A few years ago in central Utah (Strawberry Reservoir) a 12 year old girl was dragged through a cabin window and munched pretty good. I can't remember if she died, but her folks certainly were not expecting that to happen inside the cabin. Sparks ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 20:32:21 -0700 --------------060106010702060003030805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lou and all, Looks like you have good insight and we have pretty well exhausted the discussion of modern guns and pre-1840 firearms for bear/lion protection with various points made. To me, what some are saying is that there are times when pre-1840 doesn't matter as much--particularly in your own life saving events. I'm not sure anyone would want to do the pre-1840 first aid for bear injuries. Jedediah Smith himself, if I remember right, directed his colleagues on how to sew up his open scalp and face with (allegedly) leather strips. Nothing sterile, nothing in the range of 0000 suture thread, no antisceptic scrub, likely no effective pain relief (especially if the relief left him lucid enough to direct the operation), no antibiotics. After all, we want to be able to participate in next year's trek, hunt, or rendezvous. Sparks Michael Lessman wrote: >Historically when one sees the reference to "gun" (i.e. NW gun/Trade gun) >they are generally referring to a smoothbore. >Yes, you can shoot both round ball or shot.....seperately or at the same >time, which opens up an entirely new subject of the loading of buck and >ball. >Trade guns are not flintlock only and can be had in percussion also, >although most tradeguns seen, traditional come in flint. >A trade gun has the advantage of firing multitude of fairly large >projectiles at the same time, which would be considered a large advantage >over a rifled gun firing a single round ball. >There are several makers of trade guns, Caywood, Northstar West, TVM are >three that immediately come to mind, but if you're not in a rush a custom >builder could also fit the bill. >Of course a good 10 gauge double barrel percussion gun from Cabelas would >also be very good bear medicine. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection > > > > >>Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion, >> >> >both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain >lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain >ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there >is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded >with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun >in percussion. > > >>A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will >> >> >understand: > > >>Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that >> >> >you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are >they flintlock only? > > >>When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading >> >> >both round ball and buckshot at the same time? > > >>For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this >> >> >discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a >"buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know this >is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)? > > >>Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I >> >> >had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?) >maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer? > > >>Thanks for your patience with me. >> >>Lou >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > --------------060106010702060003030805 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lou and all,
Looks like you have good insight and we have pretty well exhausted the discussion of modern guns and pre-1840 firearms for bear/lion protection with various points made. To me, what some are saying is that there are times when pre-1840 doesn't matter as much--particularly in your own life saving events. I'm not sure anyone would want to do the pre-1840 first aid for bear injuries. Jedediah Smith himself, if I remember right, directed his colleagues on how to sew up his open scalp and face with (allegedly) leather strips. Nothing sterile, nothing in the range of 0000 suture thread, no antisceptic scrub, likely no effective pain relief (especially if the relief left him lucid enough to direct the operation), no antibiotics. After all, we want to be able to participate in next year's trek, hunt, or rendezvous.
Sparks

Michael Lessman wrote:

Historically when one sees the reference to "gun" (i.e. NW gun/Trade gun) they are generally referring to a smoothbore. Yes, you can shoot both round ball or shot.....seperately or at the same time, which opens up an entirely new subject of the loading of buck and ball. Trade guns are not flintlock only and can be had in percussion also, although most tradeguns seen, traditional come in flint. A trade gun has the advantage of firing multitude of fairly large projectiles at the same time, which would be considered a large advantage over a rifled gun firing a single round ball. There are several makers of trade guns, Caywood, Northstar West, TVM are three that immediately come to mind, but if you're not in a rush a custom builder could also fit the bill. Of course a good 10 gauge double barrel percussion gun from Cabelas would also be very good bear medicine. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AM

Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion,

both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun in percussion.

A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will

understand:

Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that

you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are they flintlock only?

When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading

both round ball and buckshot at the same time?

For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this

discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a "buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know this is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)?

Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I

had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?) maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer?

Thanks for your patience with me. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------060106010702060003030805-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 22:01:20 -0700 (MST) Crazy, No I don't think I am the only one that has seen Grizz up close. But when I had a huge boar cross my trail in the Bob Marshall Wilderness not 30 yards in front of me, so close we could see him squinting his eyes as he looked at us It was then I knew I wanted a big gun. I know men that have killed Grizzly's and I have been to Alaska. I just said that I choose the .12ga. People can do whatever they want. It seems whenever we are in Grizz country and one is spotted everyone that is unarmed magically goes near or behind the armed person. As for dogs in Grizz country. Don't they say that some dogs chase bears then after the fight turns the other way they lead the bear back to master for protection. It better be a good dog and well trained. I did have a good dor for 12 years that warned me about bears. My entire life is not living a primitive life. Sometimes I go primitive, sometimes I go with a riot gun. I try not going primitive in Grizz country though I have and only packed my fusee. I usually go primtive in black bear country and wear hiking boots and shorts with a .12ga when hiking and fishing in Grizz country. You just are much braver than me. I guess I'm just a big coward cause I put my faith in the .12ga bb > Beaverboy > There was a well research article on the numbers of reported death of > trappers I read that had the numbers laid out and drowning was the leading > killer in > the mountains by fare. Right now I can't remember where I read it but it's > out > there and so are the numbers. > Most of those men did not swim or swim very well those river crossing and > boats plaid hell on the boys back then. > You seem to think you are the only one that has been in Grizz country that > has seen one up close and has woke up to find fresh Grizz tracks just out > side > your camp or has cut fresh tracks so fresh that water was still running in > to > the tracks. > I have spent some time in grizz country just about every summer here in > Idaho > or in Wyoming and yes I have even camped in Montana in grizz country. > Where > to some is the only place one can find or do anything and I have done it > primitive like they did it back then. > > I have worked as a packer for an out fitter in grizz country I have hunted > and ridden in and camp in grizz country. They are a big mean eating > machine and > can be killed with one shot so long as it is placed in the right spot. > It is one thing to fear an animal it is another to respect and understand > an > animal. > I think that going out and camping in grizz country is as close as it gets > nowadays to what they had to deal with on a daily bases back then and yes > It > does make you feel alive! > > There is one more thing I forgot to mention having one or even better yet > two > dogs with you in Grizz country is a good idea. They will let you know when > they are around and are a good first alert. > > I also agree with you Back Bears are not as much of a danger as cats or > Grizzlies are and I find them to be good eating too, not to say that cat > ain't bad > eatin. > With respect for doing it primitive. > Crazy Cyot > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ben" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Finally....book release Date: 02 Mar 2004 22:04:04 -0700 Hello the camp....can I come up to the fire? I've got some exciting news....at least it is exciting to me :).....after four long years of struggle to get the thing written, edited, corrected and all the other bs that goes into getting a book in print.....I'll get mine from the printers tomorrow (or the next day) It is the story of a young man, moving with his family into the western frontier in the latter part of the fur trade era. His family is massacred and he is left with the responsibility of finding his baby sister who'd been kidnapped. He lives with mountain men, Indians, trappers, and learns to live the life of a mountain man as he searches for his sister. For more information please visit my website at http://www.chaseafterthewind.com and take a look around. There are some interesting links. Thanks to all on the list that gave me invaluable information and helped me along the way. Especially a hearty thanks to CrazyCyot for the time he took with me. I appreciate it. Ben ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 02 Mar 2004 21:48:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0149_01C400A0.172C67D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Had some buddies years ago take a trip to Alaska to hunt moose or some = such but in bear country. They took their 30-06's for backup. The guides = laughed at them. Said, "All your going to do with that 06' is piss them = off." YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0149_01C400A0.172C67D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Had some buddies years = ago take a=20 trip to Alaska to hunt moose or some such but in bear country. They took = their=20 30-06's for backup. The guides laughed at them. Said, "All your going to = do with=20 that 06' is piss them off."

YMOS
Capt. = Lahti'

------=_NextPart_000_0149_01C400A0.172C67D0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 02 Mar 2004 23:01:27 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0166_01C400AA.4AB78D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the risk of extending a subject that some feel everything has been = said I want to put in some food for thought on weapon choice. I have = not been eatin by a bear or anything close but if you are really = concerned about your safety from bear, I am going to really question = some of the advise about proper weaponry that has been presented. First = if you are shooting in self defense against a bear your nerves are going = to be the first thing shoot so don't even dream that you are going to be = any good with a pistol and any research into self defense against humans = will prove that even at point black range, accuracy is still a magor = concern. Secondly, it is very common for bears to take more than one = shoot to bring down. Niether a pistol or a shotgun is worth much at = even moderate range. Once you have put the first shoot into that beast = you have an obligation to put him down even if he turns and runs at that = point. The suggestion that I have read of and makes the best sense to me is as = heavy a caliber a rifle as you can shoot, open sights, short barrell, = heavy slug. I may be niavely stupid but I am with Crazy. Unless there is a real = extreme known bear problem in the area, while on primitive camps, I = will take precuations, and worse case scenerio depend on a group of = primitive weapons to do the job. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: James and Sue Stone=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:32 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Lou and all, Looks like you have good insight and we have pretty well exhausted the = discussion of modern guns and pre-1840 firearms for bear/lion protection = with various points made. To me, what some are saying is that there are = times when pre-1840 doesn't matter as much--particularly in your own = life saving events. I'm not sure anyone would want to do the pre-1840 = first aid for bear injuries. Jedediah Smith himself, if I remember = right, directed his colleagues on how to sew up his open scalp and face = with (allegedly) leather strips. Nothing sterile, nothing in the range = of 0000 suture thread, no antisceptic scrub, likely no effective pain = relief (especially if the relief left him lucid enough to direct the = operation), no antibiotics. After all, we want to be able to = participate in next year's trek, hunt, or rendezvous. Sparks Michael Lessman wrote: Historically when one sees the reference to "gun" (i.e. NW gun/Trade = gun) they are generally referring to a smoothbore. Yes, you can shoot both round ball or shot.....seperately or at the same time, which opens up an entirely new subject of the loading of buck and ball. Trade guns are not flintlock only and can be had in percussion also, although most tradeguns seen, traditional come in flint. A trade gun has the advantage of firing multitude of fairly large projectiles at the same time, which would be considered a large = advantage over a rifled gun firing a single round ball. There are several makers of trade guns, Caywood, Northstar West, TVM are three that immediately come to mind, but if you're not in a rush a = custom builder could also fit the bill. Of course a good 10 gauge double barrel percussion gun from Cabelas = would also be very good bear medicine. ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AM Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm = suggestion, both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and = mountain lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like = there is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice = loaded with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade = gun in percussion. A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will understand: Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean = that you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? = Are they flintlock only? When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually = loading both round ball and buckshot at the same time? For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle = because a "buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know = this is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)? Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. = I had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a = fusil?) maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer? Thanks for your patience with me. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0166_01C400AA.4AB78D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At the risk of extending a subject that = some feel=20 everything has been said I want to put in some food for thought on = weapon=20 choice. I have not been eatin by a bear or anything close but if = you are=20 really concerned about your safety from bear, I am going to really = question some=20 of the advise about proper weaponry that has been presented. First = if you=20 are shooting in self defense against a bear your nerves are going to be = the=20 first thing shoot so don't even dream that you are going to be any good = with a=20 pistol and any research into self defense against humans will prove that = even at point black range, accuracy is still a magor concern. = Secondly, it is very common for bears to take more than one shoot to = bring=20 down. Niether a pistol or a shotgun is worth much at even moderate = range. Once you have put the first shoot into that beast you have = an=20 obligation to put him down even if he turns and runs at that = point.

The suggestion that I have read of and = makes the=20 best sense to me is as heavy a caliber a rifle as you can shoot, open = sights,=20 short barrell, heavy slug.

I may be niavely stupid but I am with = Crazy. =20 Unless there is a real extreme known bear problem in the area, while = on=20 primitive camps, I will take precuations, and worse case scenerio = depend on=20 a group of primitive weapons to do the job.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 James=20 and Sue Stone
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 = 8:32=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Firearm for=20 Bear/Mountain Lion Protection

Lou and all,
Looks like you have good insight and we = have=20 pretty well exhausted the discussion of modern guns and pre-1840 = firearms for=20 bear/lion protection with various points made. To me, what some = are=20 saying is that there are times when pre-1840 doesn't matter as=20 much--particularly in your own life saving events. I'm not sure = anyone=20 would want to do the pre-1840 first aid for bear injuries. = Jedediah=20 Smith himself, if I remember right, directed his colleagues on how to = sew up=20 his open scalp and face with (allegedly) leather strips. Nothing = sterile, nothing in the range of 0000 suture thread, no antisceptic = scrub,=20 likely no effective pain relief (especially if the relief left him = lucid=20 enough to direct the operation), no antibiotics. After all, we = want to=20 be able to participate in next year's trek, hunt, or=20 rendezvous.
Sparks

Michael Lessman wrote:

Historically when one sees the reference to = "gun" (i.e. NW gun/Trade gun) they are generally referring to a smoothbore. Yes, you can shoot both round ball or shot.....seperately or at the same time, which opens up an entirely new subject of the loading of buck and ball. Trade guns are not flintlock only and can be had in percussion also, although most tradeguns seen, traditional come in flint. A trade gun has the advantage of firing multitude of fairly large projectiles at the same time, which would be considered a large = advantage over a rifled gun firing a single round ball. There are several makers of trade guns, Caywood, Northstar West, TVM are three that immediately come to mind, but if you're not in a rush a = custom builder could also fit the bill. Of course a good 10 gauge double barrel percussion gun from Cabelas = would also be very good bear medicine. ----- Original Message -----=20 href=3D"mailto:MunevarL@aol.com"><MunevarL@aol.com> href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"><hist_text@lists.xmission= .com> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AM

Thanks to all on the list = that have contributed to the firearm suggestion,
both fur trade era and = modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like = there is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice = loaded with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade = gun in percussion.

A few more questions if you = can tolerate the novice? If not I will
understand:

Are trade guns by = definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that
you can shoot both round = ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are they flintlock only?

When we say "buck and ball" = does that mean that you are actually loading
both round ball and = buckshot at the same time?

For the bear/lion = protection use that I have as a premise for this
discussion, was the trade = gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a "buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know = this is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)?

Finally, any suggestions on = who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I
had one suggestion for a = custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?) maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer?

Thanks for your patience = with me. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------=_NextPart_000_0166_01C400AA.4AB78D00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 02 Mar 2004 23:04:56 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C400AA.C7BE6300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy Please do a little mental digging or maybe someone else can tell me = where I could get the info on drowning. I am working on an article for = the T&LR that would be well supported by the information that you are = suggesting is there. Thank You=20 Wynn =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C400AA.C7BE6300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy

Please do a little mental digging or = maybe someone=20 else can tell me where I could get the info on drowning. I am = working on=20 an article for the T&LR that would be well supported by the = information that=20 you are suggesting is there.

Thank You

Wynn

------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C400AA.C7BE6300-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 03 Mar 2004 01:27:18 -0500 Thanks SnakeOyl. I want to do it right from the start. I appreciate the advice on practice and safety. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 03 Mar 2004 01:28:26 -0500 Thanks BB. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "tom" Subject: MtMan-List: brain tan frock coat Date: 02 Mar 2004 23:46:40 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII well brothers, last Saturday night, i finally had begged, borrowed and bartered enough brain tan deer skins to start me a dandy new frock coat. and Sunday night i was finished (i was really motivated i worked most of the night and all day Sunday) now i am stuck........... the body of the coat is not the tailored type. so a split up the back, to accommodate riding isn't so easy to work in to the design of the coat. i was wondering if anyone had a similar type coat, and if they have the back split? ( crazy, Allen, don't you boys have coats like that?) i have some ideas but i thought some input might be wise to seek before go ahead and split the back. thanks, Tom #1834 PRP ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
well brothers,

last Saturday night, i finally had begged, borrowed and bartered enough brain tan deer skins to start me a dandy new frock coat. and Sunday night i was finished (i was really motivated i worked most of the night and all day Sunday) now i am stuck........... the body of the coat is not the tailored type.   so a split up the back, to accommodate riding isn't so easy to work in to the design of the coat. i was wondering if anyone had a similar type coat, and if they have the back split? ( crazy, Allen, don't you boys have coats like that?) i have some ideas but i thought some input might be wise to seek before go ahead and split the back.

thanks, Tom #1834 PRP

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 03 Mar 2004 04:41:40 EST --part1_20.24054fac.2d770254_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn I try to look it up next week right now I've got to much going on trying to get ready for this weekends winter camp in the Tetons. Are you going to be able to make it? It should be a good camp we are up to 17 that are going to snow shoe in to camp. Crazy --part1_20.24054fac.2d770254_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn
I try to look it up next week right now I've got to much going on trying= to get ready for this weekends winter camp in the Tetons. Are you going to=20= be able to make it?
It should be a good camp we are up to 17 that are going to snow shoe in=20= to camp.
Crazy

--part1_20.24054fac.2d770254_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan frock coat Date: 03 Mar 2004 04:55:48 EST --part1_aa.28e357a2.2d7705a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom You have got to be kidding Jill won't let me have any hides big enough to make a frock long enough to get in the way while riding. My frock is kind of bob tailed in the back it only comes down to the upper part of my thighs in the back. She says big hides are for making dresses, go figure! So long as it is not tied shut all the way down you should have enough room to ride in it and if not you can always spit it up a might in the back after you have tried it out. Looking forward to see you finished frock. see you on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_aa.28e357a2.2d7705a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom
You have got to be kidding Jill won't let me have any hides big enough t= o make a frock long enough to get in the way while riding. My frock is kind=20= of bob tailed in the back it only comes down to the upper part of my thighs=20= in the back.
She says big hides are for making dresses, go figure!
So long as it is not tied shut all the way down you should have enough r= oom to ride in it and if not you can always spit it up a might in the back a= fter you have tried it out.
Looking forward to see you finished frock.
see you on the trail
Crazy Cyot --part1_aa.28e357a2.2d7705a4_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: amm1616@comcast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan frock coat Date: 03 Mar 2004 13:51:18 +0000 Tom, I know of a few men who have split flock coats, including myself. Mine is a nice wool lined with cambray. But the rest like the good brain tanner Ken Smith has their's out of leather. I think most are lined too. Mine was a copy of one out of a MFT book (the Mountain Man sketch book,Pierre Chouteau's coat I think). If you are going to split the back, do you want it to be functional or for looks? If functional, the split needs to go all the way to where the inseam of your pants will meet it. Other wise, it will have to "ride up" the back when in the saddle or even in a chair. If you do decide to do this, and wear a breechcloth, wind will find a way in the "tender" areas. Something to think about. Some like the back of jackets to be solid, others split. I bet either way yours will look good. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 03 Mar 2004 14:37:32 -0800 From the historical perspective it seems that we are talking about a new breed of creature that wasn't present in the RMFT days. Yet ... (Adventures of a Mountain Man, Zenas Leonard): The Grizzly Bear is the most ferocious animal that inhabits these prairies, and are very numerous. They no sooner see you than they will make at you with open mouth. If you stand still, they will come within two or three yards of you, and stand upon their hind feet, and look you in the face, if you have fortitude enough to face them, they will turn and run off; but if you turn they will most assuredly tear you to pieces; furnishing strong proof of the fact, that no wild beast, however daring and ferocious, unless wounded, will attack the face of man. (page 16) (Adventures of a Mountain Man, Zenas Leonard, subsection "Adventures of Fitzpatrick" 'in his own words'): One day after a toilsome ride, I dismounted, turned my horse loose to graze and seated myself on a rock, with the little remaining provision I had, to refresh myself. While thus seated resting my wearied limbs, and satisfying the gnawings of hunger, I was suddenly startled by a scrambling on the rocks immediately in my rear. I turned round and beheld a huge bear approaching me in double quick time. I instantly sprang to my feet, for I was well acquainted with his mode of warfare. I turned and faced his lordship, when he approached within about six feet of me, rose on his hind feet and most impudently stared me right in the face, for more than a minute. After discovering that I was no ways bashful, he bowed, turned and run - I did the same, and made for my horse. Bruin was not so easy fooled; he seen my retreat & gave chase. I thought I could reach my horse and mount before the bear could reach me, but the approach of the bear frightened my beast, and just as I was going to mount he sprang loose and threw me on the broad of my back. The bear was at my heels, and I thought that all chance of escape was now gone. Instantly I was again on my feet, - and, as it were, in a fit of desperation, rushed towards the bear, which, fearing, as they do, the face of man, again turned and run. - Sir Bruin stopped to secure the little morsel I had been eating, and retired a few paces to devour it. While the bear was thus employed, I crept to my gun, keeping the rock between him and me, having reached it, took deliberate aim and killed him dead on the spot. (Adventures of a Mountain Man, Zenas Leonard in California): After traveling a mile or so, whilst ascending a hill, came suddenly upon an old bear and two cubs. - The bear immediately on seeing Philips, as is their custom, reared on her hind feet, and being very close, commenced growling most furiously. This our hero could not brook, and fearing the consequences if he should shoot and wound her lost his presence of mind, and started to run - The bear immediately pursued and caught him. He now found it quite useless to attempt to get loose, and only saved his life by sinking to the ground and affecting to be dead. The bear then left him, but not with- out wounding him to such a degree that it was a long time before he could collect strength enough to raise to his feet. It was late at night when he reached the camp, and was so far gone, from hunger & loss of blood, that his life was despaired of at first. One of his arms was broke & his body most shockingly cut and mangled. (Adventures of a Mountain Man, Zenas Leonard): (Returned from the Joseph Rutherford Walker expedition to California and bound back for the states). 8th of August, when, as the company were passing through a small prairie, we discovered a large grizzly bear laying in the shade of some brush at the edge of the woods, when four of us started for the purpose of killing him, but on coming close, the bear heard us and ran into the thicket. We now took separate courses, intending to surround the bear & chase him out and have some sport; but one man, as we came to the thicket, acted very imprudently by dismounting and following a buffaloe path into the brush, when the bear, hearing our horses on the opposite side, started out on the same path and met the man, when he attempted to avoid it by climbing a small tree, but being too closely pressed was unable to get out of the reach of the bear, and as it passed, caught him by the leg and tore the tendon of his thigh in a most shocking manner. Before we could get to his aid the bear made off and finally escaped. Here we encamped and remained until the next day, when the wounded man expired - having bled to death from the wound, although every effort in our power was of no use. End citations. I am surprised that none have raised "the face of man" belief in this thread previously. ("strong proof of the fact, that no wild beast, however daring and ferocious, unless wounded, will attack the face of man.") And I am trying to recall which trapper, and where, is cited as waiting until the bruin closed close enough to put the gun into it's mouth and discharge the contents, which seems a sure way to cause bruin to lose it's mind, but would seem to require cajones of solid ice. B'st'rd Cat country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: amm1616@comcast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 03 Mar 2004 23:00:29 +0000 Wynn, I have some journal entries that might help in the drowning area. Email me off list and I'll give them to you. I am also trying to pull up from memory a very nice entry of a young respected man that did drown while crossing a stream on horse back,but can't remember if it is in russell, Irving or Leonard. They mention that he did it against their advice and did drown. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 03 Mar 2004 20:33:14 EST --part1_117.2fba4c97.2d77e15a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/3/04 2:41:42 PM, lray@mindspring.com writes: > waiting until the bruin closed close enough to put the gun > into it's mouth and discharge the contents, which seems a > sure way to cause bruin to lose it's mind, but would seem to > require cajones of solid ice. > > Haaaaaaaa.... and rather large ones at that! Good post B'st'rd. I've been reluctant to get into this discussion on what to use to kill a bear, but I will say I've shot a fairly large brown bear, (with 3 shots from a .338mag... all in the kill zone) have seen several killed by hunters, (only one went down with one shot) have had one buddy killed by one, (a registered guide in Alaska) and another slapped around a bit.(another guide in Alaska) The brown bear is a fearsome animal, but I'd say 99% of the time, they will leave you alone if you don't run from them. The Grizzly (the same bear living inland) may be another story.... How my friend that got killed is a depressing story, but I'll relate the story about Mario Cerami,... the guy that got slapped around somewhat... Seems Mario was the last in line of a group of five guys coming back to camp after a successful caribou hunt. The guides and hunters all had packs of meat and antlers, and were traveling down a game trail that runs along side a creek. Mario sez he was probably ten steps behind the guy in front of him when he hears a "woof...woof..woof" .... As he looks to his right, he sees a bear in a flat out charge, coming at him. His rifle is slung over his pack, and not having time to get the gun clear.... he leaps backwards into the stream as the bear jumps on him. The stream was about 3 feet deep where he landed, and the bear is on top of him...standing on his chest...and making mighty sweeps with his claws to hook him. Through all this commotion, Mario sez he could hear a "pop...pop...pop..." along with the grunts of the bear while he's under water. He said it took a little while to realize what the "pop" sounds were, and that was the only time he got kinda scared. The pops of course were gun fire from the boys that were with him, and not getting a real good breath of air when he went under with the bear on him, he thought the bear was going die on top of him and he would drown.... (!) As it turns out, the bear, after being hit several times, jumps off Mario, makes it to the far bank, and dies. Mario jumps up and catches his much needed breath of air.... A quick check, and other than a torn up shirt and a couple scratches, he none the worse for the wear. To hear him tell the story, will make the hair stand up on the back of yer neck.... The bear could be termed a grizzly I guess, because they were up in the Wrangle Mountains, (Alaska) pretty far from the coast. They never did decide why the bear charged unprovoked, other than he was hungry and could smell the caribou they were carrying.... go figure. Magpie --part1_117.2fba4c97.2d77e15a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/3/04 2:41:42 PM, lray@mindspring.com writes:

waiting until the bru= in closed close enough to put the gun
into it's mouth and discharge the contents, which seems a
sure way to cause bruin to lose it's mind, but would seem to
require cajones of solid ice.

Haaaaaaaa.... and rather large ones at that!

Good post B'st'rd.    I've been reluctant to get into this d= iscussion on what to use to kill a bear, but I will say I've shot a fairly l= arge brown bear, (with 3 shots from a .338mag... all in the kill zone) have=20= seen several killed by hunters, (only one went down with one shot) have had=20= one buddy killed by one, (a registered guide in Alaska) and another slapped=20= around a bit.(another guide in Alaska) The brown bear is a fearsome animal,=20= but I'd say 99% of the time, they will leave you alone if you don't run from= them. The Grizzly (the same bear living inland) may be another story....
How my friend that got killed is a depressing story, but I'll relate the sto= ry about Mario Cerami,... the guy that got slapped around somewhat...

Seems Mario was the last in line of a group of five guys coming back to camp= after a successful caribou hunt. The guides and hunters all had packs of me= at and antlers, and were traveling down a game trail that runs along side a=20= creek. Mario sez he was probably ten steps behind the guy in front of him wh= en he hears a "woof...woof..woof" .... As he looks to his right, he sees a b= ear in a flat out charge, coming at him. His rifle is slung over his pack, a= nd not having time to get the gun clear.... he leaps backwards into the stre= am as the bear jumps on him.

The stream was about 3 feet deep where he landed, and the bear is on top of=20= him...standing on his chest...and making mighty sweeps with his claws to hoo= k him. Through all this commotion, Mario sez he could hear a "pop...pop...po= p..." along with the grunts of the bear while he's under water. He said it t= ook a little while to realize what the "pop" sounds were, and that was the o= nly time he got kinda scared. The pops of course were gun fire from the boys= that were with him, and not getting a real good breath of air when he went=20= under with the bear on him, he thought the bear was going die on top of him=20= and he would drown.... (!)
As it turns out, the bear, after being hit several times, jumps off Mario, m= akes it to the far bank, and dies. Mario jumps up and catches his much neede= d breath of air.... A quick check, and other than a torn up shirt and a coup= le scratches, he none the worse for the wear.
To hear him tell the story, will make the hair stand up on the back of yer n= eck....
The bear could be termed a grizzly I guess, because they were up in the Wran= gle Mountains, (Alaska) pretty far from the coast. They never did decide why= the bear charged unprovoked, other than he was hungry and could smell the c= aribou they were carrying.... go figure.

Magpie

    --part1_117.2fba4c97.2d77e15a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 03 Mar 2004 20:45:51 -0700 (MST) I'd like to read that info too cause I'm having a hard time believing that more guys died by drowning then indian attacks. Maybe an indian wrote that report! bb > Crazy > Please do a little mental digging or maybe someone else can tell me where > I could get the info on drowning. I am working on an article for the T&LR > that would be well supported by the information that you are suggesting is > there. > > Thank You > Wynn > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 03 Mar 2004 21:31:36 -0700 Your wrong bb. Indians don't write they use hand sign and smoke signals for nonverbal communication. Sorry Crazy, I wont be joining you boys. Toas Tom and I are headed south to put the horses to a little use in the desert. Someday I will get motivated to put together a better deep snow outfit with tabbogan and snowshoes but so far my stick has not floated that way. This talk of drowning has put an altogether different meaning to "the way your stick floats" doesn't it? And sorry for the gross stereotyping of Native Americans I just couldn't resist. Wynn ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 8:45 PM > I'd like to read that info too cause I'm having a hard time believing > that more guys died by drowning then indian attacks. Maybe an indian > wrote that report! > bb > > > Crazy > > Please do a little mental digging or maybe someone else can tell me where > > I could get the info on drowning. I am working on an article for the T&LR > > that would be well supported by the information that you are suggesting is > > there. > > > > Thank You > > Wynn > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 03 Mar 2004 20:22:46 -0800 Wearing a human face mask on the back of the head is said to be effective proof against Tiger killings in India and Bangladesh. Wood cutters were being lost in great numbers until this strategy was employed. Maybe there is something to facing them down. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 2:37 PM > From the historical perspective it seems that we are > talking about a new breed of creature that wasn't present in > the RMFT days. Yet ... > > (Adventures of a Mountain Man, Zenas Leonard): The Grizzly > Bear is the most ferocious animal that inhabits these > prairies, and are very numerous. They no sooner see you than > they will make at you with open mouth. If you stand still, > they will come within two or three yards of you, and stand > upon their hind feet, and look you in the face, if you have > fortitude enough to face them, they will turn and run off; > but if you turn they will most assuredly tear you to pieces; > furnishing strong proof of the fact, that no wild beast, > however daring and ferocious, unless wounded, will attack > the face of man. (page 16) > > > (Adventures of a Mountain Man, Zenas Leonard, subsection > "Adventures of Fitzpatrick" 'in his own words'): One day > after a toilsome ride, I dismounted, turned my horse loose > to graze and seated myself on a rock, with the little > remaining provision I had, to refresh myself. While thus > seated resting my wearied limbs, and satisfying the gnawings > of hunger, I was suddenly startled by a scrambling on the > rocks immediately in my rear. I turned round and beheld a > huge bear approaching me in double quick time. I instantly > sprang to my feet, for I was well acquainted with his mode > of warfare. I turned and faced his lordship, when he > approached within about six feet of me, rose on his hind > feet and most impudently stared me right in the face, for > more than a minute. After discovering that I was no ways > bashful, he bowed, turned and run - I did the same, and made > for my horse. Bruin was not so easy fooled; he seen my > retreat & gave chase. I thought I could reach my horse and > mount before the bear could reach me, but the approach of > the bear frightened my beast, and just as I was going to > mount he sprang loose and threw me on the broad of my back. > The bear was at my heels, and I thought that all chance of > escape was now gone. Instantly I was again on my feet, - > and, as it were, in a fit of desperation, rushed towards the > bear, which, fearing, as they do, the face of man, again > turned and run. - Sir Bruin stopped to secure the little > morsel I had been eating, and retired a few paces to devour > it. While the bear was thus employed, I crept to my gun, > keeping the rock between him and me, having reached it, took > deliberate aim and killed him dead on the spot. > > (Adventures of a Mountain Man, Zenas Leonard in California): > After traveling a mile or so, whilst ascending a hill, > came suddenly upon an old bear and two cubs. - The bear > immediately on seeing Philips, as is their custom, reared on > her hind feet, and being very close, commenced growling most > furiously. This our hero could not brook, and fearing the > consequences if he should shoot and wound her lost his > presence of mind, and started to run - The bear immediately > pursued and caught him. He now found it quite useless to > attempt to get loose, and only saved his life by sinking to > the ground and affecting to be dead. The bear then left him, > but not with- out wounding him to such a degree that it was > a long time before he could collect strength enough to raise > to his feet. It was late at night when he reached the camp, > and was so far gone, from hunger & loss of blood, that his > life was despaired of at first. One of his arms was broke & > his body most shockingly cut and mangled. > > > (Adventures of a Mountain Man, Zenas Leonard): (Returned > from the Joseph Rutherford Walker expedition to California > and bound back for the states). 8th of August, when, as the > company were passing through a small prairie, we discovered > a large grizzly bear laying in the shade of some brush at > the edge of the woods, when four of us started for the > purpose of killing him, but on coming close, the bear heard > us and ran into the thicket. We now took separate courses, > intending to surround the bear & chase him out and have some > sport; but one man, as we came to the thicket, acted very > imprudently by dismounting and following a buffaloe path > into the brush, when the bear, hearing our horses on the > opposite side, started out on the same path and met the man, > when he attempted to avoid it by climbing a small tree, but > being too closely pressed was unable to get out of the reach > of the bear, and as it passed, caught him by the leg and > tore the tendon of his thigh in a most shocking manner. > Before we could get to his aid the bear made off and finally > escaped. > > Here we encamped and remained until the next day, when the > wounded man expired - having bled to death from the wound, > although every effort in our power was of no use. > > End citations. > > I am surprised that none have raised "the face of man" > belief in this thread previously. ("strong proof of the > fact, that no wild beast, however daring and ferocious, > unless wounded, will attack the face of man.") And I am > trying to recall which trapper, and where, is cited as > waiting until the bruin closed close enough to put the gun > into it's mouth and discharge the contents, which seems a > sure way to cause bruin to lose it's mind, but would seem to > require cajones of solid ice. > > B'st'rd > Cat country > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan frock coat Date: 03 Mar 2004 21:35:49 -0700 Hi Tom, I did not split mine on the back, and it's been just fine on many rides. Like Crazy said, if you want to split it later you can, but I'd hold off for right now. Congrats on getting the coat done, it's a lot of work, but well worth it. Come on the ride to Nationals with us this year and try it out! See ya, Allen At 11:46 PM 3/2/2004 -0700, you wrote: >well brothers, >last Saturday night, i finally had begged, borrowed and bartered enough brain tan deer skins to start me a dandy new frock coat. and Sunday night i was finished (i was really motivated i worked most of the night and all day Sunday) now i am stuck........... the body of the coat is not the tailored type. so a split up the back, to accommodate riding isn't so easy to work in to the design of the coat. i was wondering if anyone had a similar type coat, and if they have the back split? ( crazy, Allen, don't you boys have coats like that?) i have some ideas but i thought some input might be wise to seek before go ahead and split the back. >thanks, Tom #1834 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 03 Mar 2004 22:34:30 -0700 Just finished russell, and it is in there. June 22d our boat being completed we commenced crossing our equippage and while 5 of us were employed at this a young man by the name of Abram Patterson attempted to cross on horse back in spite of all the advice and entreaty of those present his wild and rash temper got the better of his reason and after a desperate struggle to reach the opposite bank he abandoned his horse made a few springs and sunk to rise no more--he was a native of Penna. about 23 years of age. from the notes: 41 Abraham R. Patterson came to Fort Hall on June 10, 1835, with the Hudson's bay Company party under Francis Ermatinger, and he died June 22, 1835. So his service with the Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company amounted to only 12 days. Journal of a Trapper (1834-1843) Osborne Russell ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "tom" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan frock coat Date: 03 Mar 2004 22:48:55 -0700 Brothers, thanks for the input on my coat . I think I'll take your advice and wait a bit before i start cutting. see ya out on the ground, Tom #1834 PRP > [Original Message] > From: Allen Hall > To: > Date: 3/3/2004 9:35:54 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan frock coat > > Hi Tom, > > I did not split mine on the back, and it's been just fine on many rides. > Like Crazy said, if you want to split it later you can, but I'd hold off for > right now. > > Congrats on getting the coat done, it's a lot of work, but well worth it. > Come on the ride to Nationals with us this year and try it out! > > See ya, > > Allen > > At 11:46 PM 3/2/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >well brothers, > >last Saturday night, i finally had begged, borrowed and bartered enough > brain tan deer skins to start me a dandy new frock coat. and Sunday night > i was finished (i was really motivated i worked most of the night and all > day Sunday) now i am stuck........... the body of the coat is not the > tailored type. so a split up the back, to accommodate riding isn't so easy > to work in to the design of the coat. i was wondering if anyone had a > similar type coat, and if they have the back split? ( crazy, Allen, don't > you boys have coats like that?) i have some ideas but i thought some input > might be wise to seek before go ahead and split the back. > >thanks, Tom #1834 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 03 Mar 2004 23:05:59 -0700 (MST) Larry, I first read Russell's journal 23 years ago when I lived in Wyoming surrounded by the land that he wrote about. I knew A drowning was in there. I never doubted that. That's 1 drowning and counting. I think there are a couple of death's in there from indian battles. Maybe I just don't remember the more mundane death's in these journals. A coworker once told me that there were more black cowboys than white cowboys. I didn't believe that either. And guess what? It ain't true. I'd just like to see these fatality figures and the source before I believe it. If it's true I bet the figures are close. I grew up in Missouri, bb > Just finished russell, and it is in there. June 22d our boat being > completed we commenced crossing our equippage and while 5 of us were > employed at this a young man by the name of Abram Patterson attempted to > cross on horse back in spite of all the advice and entreaty of those > present > his wild and rash temper got the better of his reason and after a > desperate > struggle to reach the opposite bank he abandoned his horse made a few > springs and sunk to rise no more--he was a native of Penna. about 23 years > of age. > > from the notes: 41 Abraham R. Patterson came to Fort Hall on June 10, > 1835, > with the Hudson's bay Company party under Francis Ermatinger, and he died > June 22, 1835. So his service with the Columbia River Fishing and Trading > Company amounted to only 12 days. > > Journal of a Trapper (1834-1843) Osborne Russell > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 03 Mar 2004 23:08:24 -0700 (MST) The indians drowned the mountain men!!!!! It was a trick fact! Why you old sly coyote! > Your wrong bb. Indians don't write they use hand sign and smoke signals > for > nonverbal communication. > > Sorry Crazy, I wont be joining you boys. Toas Tom and I are headed south > to > put the horses to a little use in the desert. Someday I will get > motivated > to put together a better deep snow outfit with tabbogan and snowshoes but > so > far my stick has not floated that way. > > This talk of drowning has put an altogether different meaning to "the way > your stick floats" doesn't it? And sorry for the gross stereotyping of > Native Americans I just couldn't resist. > Wynn > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 8:45 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died > > >> I'd like to read that info too cause I'm having a hard time believing >> that more guys died by drowning then indian attacks. Maybe an indian >> wrote that report! >> bb >> >> > Crazy >> > Please do a little mental digging or maybe someone else can tell me > where >> > I could get the info on drowning. I am working on an article for the > T&LR >> > that would be well supported by the information that you are >> suggesting > is >> > there. >> > >> > Thank You >> > Wynn >> > >> > >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 04 Mar 2004 09:33:56 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C401CB.D0EB31C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magpie, that was some terrifying story about your friend being = jumped by a grizz. Have you ever read the book "Grizzly Country" by Andy Russell? It = is an accounting of modern griz attacks in Alaska. Fascinating and, no pun intended, very grizzly in description of the = after effects of humans being mauled by the critters. One story from the book describes a very old bear that had long been = a problem. When it is finally killed and skinned many bullets are = retreived from its hide, muscles and bones indicating that it was a = tough one to bring down. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C401CB.D0EB31C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Magpie, that was some terrifying story about = your friend=20 being jumped by a grizz.

    Have you ever read the book "Grizzly Country" by = Andy=20 Russell? It is an accounting of modern griz attacks in = Alaska.

    Fascinating and, no pun intended, very grizzly = in=20 description of the after effects of humans being mauled by the = critters.

    One story from the book describes a very old = bear that=20 had long been a problem. When it is finally killed and skinned many = bullets are=20 retreived from its hide, muscles and bones indicating that it was a = tough one to=20 bring down.

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C401CB.D0EB31C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 04 Mar 2004 12:14:42 EST --part1_ce.47662ef1.2d78be02_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/4/04 7:36:09 AM, Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com writes: >=20 > =A0=A0=A0 Have you ever read the book "Grizzly Country" by Andy Russell?= =A0 It is=20 > an accounting of modern griz attacks in Alaska. >=20 I think I read "Grizzly Country" quite some time ago.... In one of the books= =20 there is the story of my friend Cappy (Capistrano was his last name) that go= t=20 killed. We're not sure exactly what happened, because only the hunter surviv= ed=20 (Cappy was the guide)... and some things just don't add up. I was a pilot for a few outfitters/guides in Alaska from about 1969 to 1974=20 or so, (even flew cover out of Barrow the last year Polar Bear hunting was=20 allowed...but that's a different story.) and lived in Alaska for more than 2= 0=20 years. I've got some more good bear stories, but they're better told after a= few=20 drinks over a camp fire... Magpie =20 --part1_ce.47662ef1.2d78be02_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/4/04 7:36:09 AM, Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com writes:<= BR>

=A0=A0=A0 Have you ever read the book "Grizzly Country" by Andy Russell?= =A0 It is an accounting of modern griz attacks in Alaska.

I think I read "Grizzly Country" quite some time ago.... In one of the books= there is the story of my friend Cappy (Capistrano was his last name) that g= ot killed. We're not sure exactly what happened, because only the hunter sur= vived (Cappy was the guide)... and some things just don't add up.

I was a pilot for a few outfitters/guides in Alaska from about 1969 to 1974=20= or so, (even flew cover out of Barrow the last year Polar Bear hunting was a= llowed...but that's a different story.) and lived in Alaska for more than 20= years. I've got some more good bear stories, but they're better told after=20= a few drinks over a camp fire...<G>

Magpie
--part1_ce.47662ef1.2d78be02_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 04 Mar 2004 12:54:28 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magpie How is the book coming? Tails Of A Bush Pilot? Roadkill Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Magpie How is the book coming? Tails Of A Bush Pilot?

Roadkill
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 04 Mar 2004 12:57:34 EST --part1_35.443f24c1.2d78c80e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/04 9:55:32 AM, MarkLoader@aol.com writes: > > Magpie How is the book coming? Tails Of A Bush Pilot? > > Roadkill > > Haaaaaaaa......!! I passed on the book deal because half way through some of my best stories you boys fell asleep! Magpie --part1_35.443f24c1.2d78c80e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/4/04 9:55:32 AM, MarkLoader@aol.com writes:

Magpie How is the book coming? Tails Of A Bush Pilot?

Roadkill

Haaaaaaaa......!! I passed on the book deal because half way through=20= some of my best stories you boys fell asleep! <G>

Magpie --part1_35.443f24c1.2d78c80e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: firearm for bear/mountain lion attacks Date: 04 Mar 2004 13:08:54 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magpie Have few drinks and start writing. Weren't asleep just listen better with my eyes closed. Could not have been too asleep finding them tire track on the pavement to get us home not once but twice. Your true tales should be written down no joke. Charley Norton's wife was serious. Roadkill Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Magpie Have few drinks and start writing.

Weren't asleep just listen better with my eyes closed.

Could not have been too asleep finding them tire track on the pavement=20= to get us home not once but twice. Your true tales should be written down no= joke. Charley Norton's wife was serious.

Roadkill
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trampas4@juno.com Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: MIller Paintings Date: 04 Mar 2004 21:12:33 GMT A Follow up on tents in Millers works... Lanney, If you have the book "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" look on page 197. The painting is called "Catching Up" In the left is Provost's tent. It looks so much different than any others in his drawings, pyramid? In the book "Artist on the Oregon Trail" plate # 29 in is called "Attrapez des Chevaux" the tent has the same look. Also in that book plate #37, "Our Camp" look behind the cart. I have been trying to find the histiry of the pyramid tent, so far not much luck. The web site for Tentsmiths mentions the Britsh wanted to use such a type some years early, but thats all I found so far. Like some feed back, I am sure this will stir the kettle! Bill Gantic, Baker Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Boyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 04 Mar 2004 13:23:28 -0800 (PST) --0-704676870-1078435408=:89985 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For information on original tradeguns see: http://sittingfoxagency.com/success/part1.html Nate ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AMSubject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion, both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountainlion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrainourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like thereis some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loadedwith "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gunin percussion. A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will understand: Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Arethey flintlock only? When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading both round ball and buckshot at the same time? For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a"buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know thisis not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)? Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?)maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer? Thanks for your patience with me.Lou----------------------hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ----------------------hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-704676870-1078435408=:89985 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

For information on original tradeguns see: http://sittingfoxagency.com/success/part1.html
Nate
----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AM

Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion,
both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun in percussion.

A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will
understand:

Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that
you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are they flintlock only?

When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading
both round ball and buckshot at the same time?

For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this
discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a "buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know this is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)?

Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I
had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?) maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer?

Thanks for your patience with me. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-704676870-1078435408=:89985-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 04 Mar 2004 17:32:57 -0500 Nate, I'll take a read of that one. Thanks for the reference. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Teter Subject: MtMan-List: grizzly book Date: 04 Mar 2004 14:34:32 -0800 (PST) --0-1566206690-1078439672=:23278 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Modern books are great for learning about the animal, but Fred Gowans' book Mountain Man & Grizzly is the best one for people who like this site. Mr. Gowans compiled almost every recorded instance of grizzly encounters known, from Lewis & Clark to late era mountaineers. Good stuff. Just thought I'd mention it since this subject has generated so much interest. Lee Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-1566206690-1078439672=:23278 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Modern books are great for learning about the animal, but Fred Gowans' book Mountain Man & Grizzly is the best one for people who like this site. Mr. Gowans compiled almost every recorded instance of grizzly encounters known, from Lewis & Clark to late era mountaineers. Good stuff. Just thought I'd mention it since this subject has generated so much interest.

Lee
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-1566206690-1078439672=:23278-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 04 Mar 2004 19:35:57 -0700 --------------060401000205010606000502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like you, I'd appreciate seeing further documentation. But seeing as how those guys spent their days getting in and out of the water without waterproof waders, it could be. Expecially if you incoude near drownings that resulted in death by hypothermia. Sparks beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > I'd like to read that info too cause I'm having a hard time believing >that more guys died by drowning then indian attacks. Maybe an indian >wrote that report! > bb > > > >>Crazy >>Please do a little mental digging or maybe someone else can tell me where >>I could get the info on drowning. I am working on an article for the T&LR >>that would be well supported by the information that you are suggesting is >>there. >> >>Thank You >>Wynn >> >> >> >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > --------------060401000205010606000502 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like you, I'd appreciate seeing further documentation. But seeing as how those guys spent their days getting in and out of the water without waterproof waders, it could be. Expecially if you incoude near drownings that resulted in death by hypothermia.
Sparks

beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:

I'd like to read that info too cause I'm having a hard time believing that more guys died by drowning then indian attacks. Maybe an indian wrote that report! bb

Crazy Please do a little mental digging or maybe someone else can tell me where I could get the info on drowning. I am working on an article for the T&LR that would be well supported by the information that you are suggesting is there. Thank You Wynn

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------060401000205010606000502-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RICK TABOR" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 05 Mar 2004 10:28:55 -0800 A HBC study I read years ago stated that the leading cause of death among the French Canadian voyagers was infact drowning. However, number 2 was death by incarcerated hernia. That was why they wore the sashes, as a truss. Just something to ponder on. Rick _________________________________________________________________ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar � includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 05 Mar 2004 12:41:09 -0700 Makes sense to me, especially in light of canoe travel across the great lakes in the Spring and Fall. Number 2 cause also makes sense in all the stuff they were packing in addition to the canoe portages. Sparks RICK TABOR wrote: > A HBC study I read years ago stated that the leading cause of death > among the French Canadian voyagers was infact drowning. However, > number 2 was death by incarcerated hernia. That was why they wore the > sashes, as a truss. Just something to ponder on. > Rick > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar � includes FREE pop-up > blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 05 Mar 2004 15:36:44 -0700 (MST) Voyagers yes, I could see that. But Voyagers and Mountain Men are two different vocations. Didn't they even prefer voyagers that couldn't swim as they would not abandon ship? Whole familes of Cree Indians have drowned at a time in the big water of the north but again, that is the northeast not the arid west. Voyagers were not dealing with the deadlier plains tribes either. I know the leading cause of death for Mountain Men certainly could be drownings I just can't remember reading about that many drownings. But like I said earlier, maybe I just remember the indian battle deaths more as they are dramatic. They would have probably all died of tobacco had they lived long enough. bb > A HBC study I read years ago stated that the leading cause of death among > the French Canadian voyagers was infact drowning. However, number 2 was > death by incarcerated hernia. That was why they wore the sashes, as a > truss. > Just something to ponder on. > Rick > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar � includes FREE pop-up blocking! > http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Monte Holder" Subject: MtMan-List: tobacco Date: 08 Mar 2004 12:16:37 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02C2_01C40507.348221B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If any of you pipe smokers out there was out of tobacco and you wanted = some to take with you on your next adventure, what kind would you likely = pick up. Feel free to email me off list if necessary. I was just = curious as to appropriate kinds of smoke makin's Monte Holder Saline County MO ------=_NextPart_000_02C2_01C40507.348221B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If any of you pipe smokers out there was out of tobacco and you = wanted some=20 to take with you on your next adventure, what kind would you likely pick = up. Feel free to email me off list if necessary. I was just = curious=20 as to appropriate kinds of smoke makin's

Monte Holder

Saline County MO
------=_NextPart_000_02C2_01C40507.348221B0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco Date: 08 Mar 2004 13:27:39 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/8/2004 10:22:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, sja028@mail.connect.more.net writes: what kind would you likely pick up Monte, You interested in period stuff, or regular tobaccy? Barn Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 3/8/2004 10:22:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, sja028@m= ail.connect.more.net writes:

what kind would you likely pick up

Monte, You interes= ted in period stuff, or regular tobaccy?     Barn
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc Date: 08 Mar 2004 13:30:03 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc. Prices Camp Items for Living History and Reenactment of the Fur Trade Era Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

&n= bsp;

Click here: Clark and Sons Mercantile I= nc. Prices Camp Items for Living History and Reenactment of the Fur Trade Er= a
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc Date: 08 Mar 2004 13:31:36 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Monty, For period stuff, check out the section on Smoking and Lighting..... Barn Click here: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc. Prices Camp Items for Living History and Reenactment of the Fur Trade Era Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Monty, For period=20= stuff, check out the section on Smoking and Lighting.....   Barn&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

Click here: Clark and Sons Mercantile I= nc. Prices Camp Items for Living History and Reenactment of the Fur Trade Er= a
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: ways mtn men died Date: 08 Mar 2004 12:31:46 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C40509.51FEBCB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BB said, < I know the leading cause of death for Mountain Men certainly could = be drownings I just can't remember reading about that many drownings. But like I said earlier, maybe I just remember the indian battle deaths more as they are dramatic> Probably because they were not writing down their experience as they = struggled to not go under for the third time. And in the battles, some may have survived to share their stories.=20 The facts, legends, and lack thereof is what makes study and = discussion both interesting and non-ending. Personally, I would think that the leading causes of death were less = dramatic than drownings and battles. Things like gangrene, falls and = illness must have taken their toll in large numbers without proper = medical treatment being available.=20 How about starvation, dehydration, hypothermia? Frank ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C40509.51FEBCB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
BB said,

    < I know the leading cause of death for = Mountain Men=20 certainly could be
drownings I just can't remember reading about that = many=20 drownings. But
like I said earlier, maybe I just remember the indian = battle=20 deaths
more as they are dramatic>

    Probably because they were not writing down = their=20 experience as they struggled to not go under for the third time.

    And in the battles, some may have survived to = share=20 their stories.

    The facts, legends, and lack thereof is what = makes study=20 and discussion both interesting and non-ending.

    Personally, I would think that the leading = causes of=20 death were less dramatic than drownings and battles. Things like = gangrene, falls=20 and illness must have taken their toll in large numbers without proper = medical=20 treatment being available.

    How about starvation, dehydration, = hypothermia?

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C40509.51FEBCB0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Monte Holder" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco Date: 08 Mar 2004 12:34:14 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02DB_01C40509.AA5B2100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am interested in both, but just wondered what you'd run out to get on = the spur of the moment when you realized you were about out, loading up = to go somewhere and couldn't get it through the mail in time. Monte ------=_NextPart_000_02DB_01C40509.AA5B2100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am interested in both, = but just=20 wondered what you'd run out to get on the spur of the moment when you = realized=20 you were about out, loading up to go somewhere and couldn't get it = through the=20 mail in time.

Monte
------=_NextPart_000_02DB_01C40509.AA5B2100-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bear attacks Date: 08 Mar 2004 12:37:02 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C4050A.0EB7E0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee Teter said, I'll look up that one and read it, Lee. Another about griz encounters through the ages, from old myth to = more recent accounts is: "Alaska Bear Tales" by Larry Kaniut. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C4050A.0EB7E0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lee Teter said,

    <Modern books are great for learning about = the=20 animal, but Fred Gowans' book Mountain Man & Grizzly is the best one = for=20 people who like this site. Mr. Gowans compiled almost every recorded = instance of=20 grizzly encounters known, from Lewis & Clark to late era=20 mountaineers>

    I'll look up that one and read it, Lee.

    Another about griz encounters through the ages, = from old=20 myth to more recent accounts is:

    "Alaska Bear Tales" by Larry Kaniut.

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C4050A.0EB7E0C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: ramrods Date: 08 Mar 2004 12:38:57 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C4050A.52E41E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hope this solicitation is all right here. I have gone back into the synthetic ramrod business. Contact me off-list for information: Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C4050A.52E41E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hope this solicitation is all right here.

    I have gone back into the synthetic ramrod=20 business.

    Contact me off-list for information: Rifleman1776@cox-internet.c= om

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C4050A.52E41E30-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco Date: 08 Mar 2004 10:37:37 -0800 I'd do without, which is VERY period. B'st'rd Monte Holder wrote: > I am interested in both, but just wondered what you'd run out to get on > the spur of the moment when you realized you were about out, loading up > to go somewhere and couldn't get it through the mail in time. > > Monte ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DOUBLE EDGE FORGE" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco Date: 08 Mar 2004 13:53:25 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C40514.BA685120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I carry the Irish Black Rope tobac. Can be smoked in a pipe or = chewed.... D ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Monte Holder=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 1:16 PM Subject: MtMan-List: tobacco If any of you pipe smokers out there was out of tobacco and you wanted = some to take with you on your next adventure, what kind would you likely = pick up. Feel free to email me off list if necessary. I was just = curious as to appropriate kinds of smoke makin's Monte Holder Saline County MO ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C40514.BA685120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I carry the Irish Black Rope = tobac. Can be=20 smoked in a pipe or chewed....

D

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Monte Holder
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 1:16=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: = tobacco

If any of you pipe smokers out there was out of tobacco and you = wanted=20 some to take with you on your next adventure, what kind would you = likely pick=20 up. Feel free to email me off list if necessary. I was = just=20 curious as to appropriate kinds of smoke makin's

Monte Holder

Saline County MO
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C40514.BA685120-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc Date: 08 Mar 2004 13:53:58 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C40514.CDC151E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the referral, but Clark and Sons is no longer in business, or = what pulse remains, is very weak, and will only be resuscitated if a = pending sale is completed. Regards, Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: LivingInThePast@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 12:31 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc Monty, For period stuff, check out the section on Smoking and = Lighting..... Barn=20 Click here: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc. Prices Camp Items for = Living History and Reenactment of the Fur Trade Era ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C40514.CDC151E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for the referral, but = Clark and=20 Sons is no longer in business, or what pulse remains, is very weak, and = will=20 only be resuscitated if a pending sale is = completed.

Regards,

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 LivingInThePast@aol.com =
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 12:31=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Clark and = Sons=20 Mercantile Inc

Monty, For = period stuff,=20 check out the section on Smoking and Lighting.....  =20 Barn

Click here: Clark = and Sons=20 Mercantile Inc. Prices Camp Items for Living History and Reenactment = of the=20 Fur Trade Era
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C40514.CDC151E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc Date: 08 Mar 2004 13:54:08 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40514.D3E065C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the referral, but Clark and Sons is no longer in business, or = what pulse remains, is very weak, and will only be resuscitated if a = pending sale is completed. Regards, Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: LivingInThePast@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc Click here: Clark and Sons Mercantile Inc. Prices Camp Items for = Living History and Reenactment of the Fur Trade Era ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40514.D3E065C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the referral, but = Clark and=20 Sons is no longer in business, or what pulse remains, is very weak, and = will=20 only be resuscitated if a pending sale is = completed.

Regards,

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 LivingInThePast@aol.com =
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 12:30=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Clark and = Sons=20 Mercantile Inc

Click here: Clark = and Sons=20 Mercantile Inc. Prices Camp Items for Living History and Reenactment = of the=20 Fur Trade Era
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40514.D3E065C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Looms Date: 08 Mar 2004 22:32:02 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C4055D.2D529220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If anyone is interested in going into the wool blanket business I bet = this machinery from Barron Woolin Mills will go for a song. If someone = does use my tip I expect to get a good deal on blankets here after.=20 =20 Wynn Ormond=20 =20 =20 =20 Ogden UT Area Code: 801 Date Posted: 03/07/2004 NOTIFICATION OF DISPOSITION OF COLLATERALBaron's Rocky Mountain Wool = Corporation and Marva L. Sadler and Robert D. Sadler are the Debtors = under a Security Agreement dated June 16, 1993 made with Bear River = Association of Governments as Secured Party. The Debtors have granted a = security interest to the Secured Party in all of the property described = in attachment "A".We will sell the following property described in = attachment "A" to the highest qualified bidder in public as = follows:Date: Tuesday, March 09, 2004Time: 1:00 p.m.Place: Main Entrance = of the First Judicial District Court; 43 North Main, Brigham City, = UtahThe Auction will be made without any covenant, warranty express or = implied, regarding title, possession, quiet enjoyment, encumbrances or = the like.Each bidder must be prepared to tender a $1,000 cashier's check = at the sale and certified funds for the balance of the purchase price = within twenty-four hours after the sale.Equipment Inventory, June 15, = 1993DescriptionSingle Coner2 - 115 " Crompton & Knowles Loom; 4 - 110" Crompton & Knowles = LoomDavis & Furber Pinless PlateWarp Equipment: 14 110" Warp Beams; 9 = 115" Warp Beams; 16 Warp JackspoolsJames Hunter Fulling MillRodney Hunt = Wash Box48" Raw Stock Extractor-Tolhurst100" 36 Roll Tomlinson = NapperTenter Dryer-DB Kenyon & Son, Rariton, NJ2 44" Newcomb Hand Looms1 = Ton Yale Electric Chain HoistToledo Floor Scale, 800# capacityFairbanks = Morse Hanging Scales, 600# capacity7' X 30' 5th Wheel TrailerScouring = Train-SC Sargent & Sons 193048" Troy Atlas Stainless Steel Extractor, = 750 lb.500 lb Dye Kettle48" Raw Stock Extractor20 Ft. Steam Heated = Sargeant Stock Dryer48" Mixing Picker, turntable & blower-James Smith = Woolen Machinery Co.48"X60" Davis & Furber 3 breaker, Doffer Cards, = Feeder HoppersCard Clothing Traverse Grinder-BS Roy & Son144 Spindle D&F = Series F Spinning FrameAbbott Automatic Quiller RewinderBailer: 50'-M = Type "PLD", 24"X48" Down Pkg Double Box Linter PressMisc. PartsDATED: = Thursday, March 4, 2004Publication Date: Su nday, March 7, 2004Jonathan = E. JenkinsDAINES, WYATT & ALLEN, LLP108 N. MainLogan, UT = 84321435-753-4000Pub.: March 7, 200423051 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C4055D.2D529220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If anyone is interested in = going=20 into the wool blanket business I bet this machinery from Barron Woolin = Mills=20 will go for a song. If someone does use my tip I expect to get a = good deal=20 on blankets here after.

Wynn Ormond=20

Ogden = UT   Area=20 Code: 801 Date Posted: 03/07/2004

NOTIFICATION OF = DISPOSITION=20 OF COLLATERALBaron's Rocky Mountain Wool Corporation and Marva L. Sadler = and=20 Robert D. Sadler are the Debtors under a Security Agreement dated June = 16, 1993=20 made with Bear River Association of Governments as Secured Party. The = Debtors=20 have granted a security interest to the Secured Party in all of the = property=20 described in attachment "A".We will sell the following property = described in=20 attachment "A" to the highest qualified bidder in public as = follows:Date:=20 Tuesday, March 09, 2004Time: 1:00 p.m.Place: Main Entrance of the First = Judicial=20 District Court; 43 North Main, Brigham City, UtahThe Auction will be = made=20 without any covenant, warranty express or implied, regarding title, = possession,=20 quiet enjoyment, encumbrances or the like.Each bidder must be prepared = to tender=20 a $1,000 cashier's check at the sale and certified funds for the balance = of the=20 purchase price within twenty-four hours after the sale.Equipment = Inventory, June=20 15, 1993DescriptionSingle

Coner2 - 115 " = Crompton=20 & Knowles Loom; 4 - 110" Crompton & Knowles LoomDavis & = Furber=20 Pinless PlateWarp Equipment: 14 110" Warp Beams; 9 115" Warp Beams; 16 = Warp=20 JackspoolsJames Hunter Fulling MillRodney Hunt Wash Box48" Raw Stock=20 Extractor-Tolhurst100" 36 Roll Tomlinson NapperTenter Dryer-DB Kenyon = & Son,=20 Rariton, NJ2 44" Newcomb Hand Looms1 Ton Yale Electric Chain HoistToledo = Floor=20 Scale, 800# capacityFairbanks Morse Hanging Scales, 600# capacity7' X = 30' 5th=20 Wheel TrailerScouring Train-SC Sargent & Sons 193048" Troy Atlas = Stainless=20 Steel Extractor, 750 lb.500 lb Dye Kettle48" Raw Stock Extractor20 Ft. = Steam=20 Heated Sargeant Stock Dryer48" Mixing Picker, turntable & = blower-James Smith=20 Woolen Machinery Co.48"X60" Davis & Furber 3 breaker, Doffer Cards, = Feeder=20 HoppersCard Clothing Traverse Grinder-BS Roy & Son144 Spindle = D&F Series=20 F Spinning FrameAbbott Automatic Quiller RewinderBailer: 50'-M Type = "PLD",=20 24"X48" Down Pkg Double Box Linter PressMisc. PartsDATED: Thursday, = March 4,=20 2004Publication Date: Su nday, March 7, 2004Jonathan E. JenkinsDAINES, = WYATT=20 & ALLEN, LLP108 N. MainLogan, UT 84321435-753-4000Pub.: March 7,=20 200423051

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C4055D.2D529220-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 09 Mar 2004 02:25:00 EST --part1_15a.2f771b66.2d7ecb4c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just got back from our camp in Pierre's Hole last night and I still have not had a chance to look up that Article on Mountain Men's deaths. After I get my gear all dried out and put away I'll start to see if I can find it. But if my memoire serves me right the author of the article was quoting Heff from volume #10 of his series on The Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West. I do not have this series of books in my collection. If any of you have this series you maybe able to look it up. In it he talks of the numbers that lived to old age and the average age of the trappers and does a run down on the leading causes of deaths among the trappers. That is if my memory serves me right and the older I get the more often it has let me down so I'm not going to swearing by it right now. I was like you Beaverboy and thought that the leading cause of early death would have been at the hands of Indians until I read this article. If I were you, I would not be to quick to say that Voyagers and Cree did not take an active part in the fur trade here in the Rocky Mountains and have any dealing with the deadlier plains tribes here. For there were a lot of them that found them selves here in the Rockies working for the fur companies and some of them did die from Indians and rivers here while doing so. I know there were two Voyagers that drowned with the Astorians party on the Snake River here in Idaho when they tried to take dugouts down it. The Men that took part in the Fur Trade came from a lot of different back grounds and races. See ya On the Trail Crazy Cyot --part1_15a.2f771b66.2d7ecb4c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just got back= from our camp in Pierre's Hole last night and I still have not had a chance= to look up that Article on Mountain Men's deaths. After I get my gear all d= ried out and put away I'll start to see if I can find it.
But if my memoire serves me right the author of the article was quoting=20= Heff from volume #10 of his series on The Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of=20= the Far West. I do not have this series of books in my collection. If any of= you have this series you maybe able to look it up. In it he talks of the nu= mbers that lived to old age and the average age of the trappers and does a r= un down on the leading causes of deaths among the trappers. That is if my me= mory serves me right and the older I get the more often it has let me down s= o I'm not going to swearing by it right now.
I was like you Beaverboy and thought that the leading cause of early dea= th would have been at the hands of Indians until I read this article.=20
If I were you, I would not be to quick to say that Voyagers and Cree did= not take an active part in the fur trade here in the Rocky Mountains and ha= ve any dealing with the deadlier plains tribes here.=20
For there were a lot of them that found them selves here in the Rockies=20= working for the fur companies and some of them did die from Indians and rive= rs here while doing so.=20
I know there were two Voyagers that drowned with the Astorians party on=20= the Snake River here in Idaho when they tried to take dugouts down it.=20
The Men that took part in the Fur Trade came from a lot of different bac= k grounds and races.=20
See ya On the Trail
Crazy Cyot=20
--part1_15a.2f771b66.2d7ecb4c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kim-Ken Carpenter" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: ways mtn men died Date: 09 Mar 2004 05:35:25 -0800 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Haven't seen this one yet: What about accidental discharge of firearms? Carp ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 3/8/2004 10:31:40 AM BB said, < I know the leading cause of death for Mountain Men certainly could be drownings I just can't remember reading about that many drownings. But like I said earlier, maybe I just remember the indian battle deaths more as they are dramatic> Probably because they were not writing down their experience as they struggled to not go under for the third time. And in the battles, some may have survived to share their stories. The facts, legends, and lack thereof is what makes study and discussion both interesting and non-ending. Personally, I would think that the leading causes of death were less dramatic than drownings and battles. Things like gangrene, falls and illness must have taken their toll in large numbers without proper medical treatment being available. How about starvation, dehydration, hypothermia? Frank ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Haven't seen this one yet:

What about accidental discharge of firearms?

Carp

----- Original Message -----

From: Frank Fusco

To: list AMM

Sent: 3/8/2004 10:31:40 AM

Subject: MtMan-List: ways mtn men died

BB said,

    < I know the leading cause of death for Mountain Men certainly could be
drownings I just can't remember reading about that many drownings. But
like I said earlier, maybe I just remember the indian battle deaths
more as they are dramatic>

    Probably because they were not writing down their experience as they struggled to not go under for the third time.

    And in the battles, some may have survived to share their stories.

    The facts, legends, and lack thereof is what makes study and discussion both interesting and non-ending.

    Personally, I would think that the leading causes of death were less dramatic than drownings and battles. Things like gangrene, falls and illness must have taken their toll in large numbers without proper medical treatment being available.

    How about starvation, dehydration, hypothermia?

Frank
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Lessman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection Date: 09 Mar 2004 09:05:49 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C405B5.B7553290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee, Contact me off list at brownbess1775@aol.com Re:Peloux guns ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lee Teter=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:26 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection There are other things to consider.=20 Black bear are not grizzly bears. If a black bear attacks assume it = wants to eat you. Fight back even if you don't have a gun. Even a child = has been known to fight a black bear off; it seems they don't like their = supper to squirm around so much. On the other hand a researcher in = Canada played dead for a black bear and had all the flesh of both legs = and most of one arm eaten away before she figured out playing dead = didn't work with blacks. She survived. One arm.=20 Grizzly seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. They like to = fight. So don't squirm so much, they might think they can get a fight = out of you. I doubt anyone I know could pin a griz anyway. There are other things you won't hear talked about much. I'd hate to = be female in grizzly country. Women have "issues" that bears react to. = Even without that issue, they smell female. And sex is a no no in griz = country. According to one researcher, attacks are often caused by a bear = who thinks someone is encroaching on his territory, and I'm not talking = about terrain. He said most couples who are attacked were "engaged".=20 The noise thing might work for black bear but I wouldn't trust it = with griz. In the early years of the reintroduction program researchers = were dropped by helicopter. Policy was to hit the ground running and = climb a nearby tree until the noisy chopper left. It seems griz looked = at the noise as a challenge. Pioneer researcher, John M. told me about = at least one researcher who didn't get to a tree fast enough. Another = thing I wonder about is the head wounds found in griz attacks; are they = trying to stop the noise by attacking its source? I think if I get = attacked I'll try to keep quiet as well as motionless. Could be = difficult, but I doubt anyone will be around to hear me anyway. Never shot a griz. If I have to, I think I'm with John Kramer. Big = ball, buckshot and lots of powder. It will at least hurt him. If he = kills me it will be better than a car wreck. I hate automobiles.=20 Lee =20 ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C405B5.B7553290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lee, Contact me off list at brownbess1775@aol.com &nbs= p;=20 Re:Peloux guns

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lee = Teter=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 = 5:26=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Firearm for=20 Bear/Mountain Lion Protection

There are other things to consider.

Black bear are not grizzly bears. If a black bear attacks assume = it wants=20 to eat you. Fight back even if you don't have a gun. Even a child = has been=20 known to fight a black bear off; it seems they don't like their = supper to=20 squirm around so much. On the other hand a researcher in Canada = played dead=20 for a black bear and had all the flesh of both legs and most of one = arm=20 eaten away before she figured out playing dead didn't work with = blacks. She=20 survived. One arm.

Grizzly seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. They like to = fight.=20 So don't squirm so much, they might think they can get a fight out = of you. I=20 doubt anyone I know could pin a griz anyway.

There are other things you won't hear talked about much. I'd hate = to be=20 female in grizzly country. Women have "issues" that bears react to. = Even=20 without that issue, they smell female. And sex is a no no in griz = country.=20 According to one researcher, attacks are often caused by a bear who = thinks=20 someone is encroaching on his territory, and I'm not talking about = terrain.=20 He said most couples who are attacked were = "engaged".

The noise thing might work for black bear but I wouldn't trust it = with=20 griz. In the early years of the reintroduction program = researchers=20 were dropped by helicopter. Policy was to hit the ground running and = climb a=20 nearby tree until the noisy chopper left. It seems griz looked at = the noise=20 as a challenge. Pioneer researcher, John M. told me about at = least one=20 researcher who didn't get to a tree fast enough. Another thing I = wonder=20 about is the head wounds found in griz attacks; are they trying to = stop the=20 noise by attacking its source? I think if I get attacked I'll try to = keep=20 quiet as well as motionless. Could be difficult, but I doubt anyone = will be=20 around to hear me anyway.

Never shot a griz. If I have to, I think I'm with John = Kramer.=20 Big ball, buckshot and lots of powder. It will at least hurt him. If = he=20 kills me it will be better than a car wreck. I hate automobiles. =

Lee



Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get=20 your refund fast by filing online ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C405B5.B7553290-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looms Date: 09 Mar 2004 17:29:28 GMT What a sad day. I was hoping that the woolen mill would rise from the ashes once again and produce some more fine blankets. It was an interesting place to visit. Guess I should have bought more of their blankets. Teton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 09 Mar 2004 14:54:32 -0500 I am interested in hearing some ideas on how you set-up your bed on primitive outings. The climate would be cool night time temps in the upper 20s-upper 30s but no snow on the ground. What do you use to insulate your body from the ground? (modern would be a foam pad and primitive, the way I have done it, is 6-9 inches of pine needles or leaves) But what about when there is little debris on the ground? Primarily chapparal? Are their any period correct alternatives to the modern foam pad that one would carry? What goes on top of this? Ground cloth (dimensions), shelter cloth (dimensions; do you use one or do you simply fold an oversized ground cloth over you to act a shelter from rain/snow? Blanket(s). How are they arranged? Any specifics? (folded in half, thirds, pinned, sewn together) I have never gone on a mountain man era primitive trek. I have gone completely primitive (no pack, no sleeping bag/blanket, made my own shelter, debris for warmth) and modern backpacking but I wanted to know what to pack for a mountain man era trek. Looking forward to hear your experiences. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 09 Mar 2004 13:49:26 -0800 Here is my method which serves well down to mildly frosty conditions. I have two good wool blankets and a windbreaker canvas somewhat larger than the blankets. I find the most comfortable spot of ground, removing rocks, sticks etc and arranging a hip-hole. If you do this right you don't need padding. I basically fold my blankets and canvas in half and lay between so I have the same layers underneath as above. If the ground is wet, I would take the trouble to build a bed of debris for more insulation. I sleep in my warmest clothes too. The ground slowly warms up underneath, providing a heat reservoir for the coldest part of the night. The windbreaking effect of the canvas on top is essential. I position the open side of the bedding away from the wind, and if there's a slope, pointing downhill. I have a serape I often drape over my upper body on top of all this bedding as a head-nest but otherwise I snuggle under the blankets if I get that cold. A single good buffalo robe can replace all of this but it's actually heavier especially if wet. But it IS warm. My blankets, canvas and serape roll into two manageable bedrolls, which I tie on a crude packframe along with a portmanteau for my other stuff. The resulting pack is not trivial but it travels OK. For warm conditions, omit a blanket, or sleep on top for extra cushioning. I once travelled with just the serape and canvas, but I was a little cold on a spring mountain night (40's?). Happy trails! Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:55 AM I am interested in hearing some ideas on how you set-up your bed on primitive outings. The climate would be cool night time temps in the upper 20s-upper 30s but no snow on the ground. What do you use to insulate your body from the ground? (modern would be a foam pad and primitive, the way I have done it, is 6-9 inches of pine needles or leaves) But what about when there is little debris on the ground? Primarily chapparal? Are their any period correct alternatives to the modern foam pad that one would carry? What goes on top of this? Ground cloth (dimensions), shelter cloth (dimensions; do you use one or do you simply fold an oversized ground cloth over you to act a shelter from rain/snow? Blanket(s). How are they arranged? Any specifics? (folded in half, thirds, pinned, sewn together) I have never gone on a mountain man era primitive trek. I have gone completely primitive (no pack, no sleeping bag/blanket, made my own shelter, debris for warmth) and modern backpacking but I wanted to know what to pack for a mountain man era trek. Looking forward to hear your experiences. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 09 Mar 2004 18:05:59 EST --part1_1cd.1b883b7c.2d7fa7d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/9/04 11:55:23 AM, MunevarL@aol.com writes: > The climate would be cool night time temps in the upper 20s-upper 30s but=20 > no snow on the ground.=A0 What do you use to insulate your body from the g= round?=20 > ( >=20 Lou... I carry a tanned, hair on, sheep skin to sleep on. It's rather light,= =20 a good 3/4 body length, provides a fair measure of comfort, and the wool kee= ps=20 the cold away from your back. Put it on a canvas ground cloth, with a buffal= o=20 robe for a blanket, and I've been warm when it goes below freezing. Magpie=20 --part1_1cd.1b883b7c.2d7fa7d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/9/04 11:55:23 AM, MunevarL@aol.com writes:

The climate would be=20= cool night time temps in the upper 20s-upper 30s but no snow on the ground.= =A0 What do you use to insulate your body from the ground? (

Lou... I carry a tanned, hair on, sheep skin to sleep on. It's rather light,= a good 3/4 body length, provides a fair measure of comfort, and the wool ke= eps the cold away from your back. Put it on a canvas ground cloth, with a bu= ffalo robe for a blanket, and I've been warm when it goes below freezing.
Magpie --part1_1cd.1b883b7c.2d7fa7d7_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looms Date: 09 Mar 2004 21:41:30 -0700 Todd It could shine again. Teton Wool and Virgin Sheep Inc. Kinda got a ring to it. Wynn ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 10:29 AM > > What a sad day. I was hoping that the woolen mill would rise from the ashes once again and produce some more fine blankets. It was an interesting place to visit. Guess I should have bought more of their blankets. > > Teton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 09 Mar 2004 21:03:46 -0800 Lou, I have a brain tanned buffalo robe tanned by Wes Housler. It is big enough to put above and below me by folding. I have also used a good sheepskin. A sheepskin is affordable, and worth it's weight in gold. It pads and insulates, it's light enough to pack too. A good tarp is great to keep moisture from ground under you, and warmth stealing wind off of you. A hip hole is easy to do, and well worth the effort. Any available duff is worth gathering also. Yfab, Randy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 09 Mar 2004 22:30:51 -0700 Lou I had a change of plans this last weekend and ended up going North into the snow country instead of south to the desert, perhaps my experience will prove informative. I wondered into a camp after dark and the boys were glad to see me. Without me there were more women than men and most of the guys are not used to being outnumbered by such resourceful and competent women at primitive doins. At any rate after being feed grandly and having a few rounds and a story or two I threw out my tarp, bufalo robe and two wool blankets. I was on top the snow near the fire and the back of my legs had not dried out. As the night progressed I had trouble staying wrapped in the bedding, feet would get pushed out the bottom or blankets wonder off. If I figited wrong the snow would work it way in. I can not stay curled up because of my knees getting sore but my feet got cold laying stretched out. I woke up with the fire burning right in front of my nose and had to reposition back on the other side of a log. Didn't get warm until after sunup. On Saturday night I dried out a bit more evenly during social hour. I also took possession of a wonderful little nest that Richard Ashburn and his lovely wife had prepared and vacated the night before. They had dug down through the snow to the duff. I carefully wrapped the blankets and robe which were folded in half with the fold facing the same direction on all three in an untreated canvas tarp. It was tucked well under me feet to make it near impossible to kick out of in the night and I had plenty to throw over my head that is covered and pillowed by a serape. I also tied a rope loosely around two places to help keep everything together. The temp dropped much colder (nearby town 9 degrees) but I slept totally warm. I took my foot gear off since they had some moisture in them and slept barefoot. I might brave it and carry less bedding than that in the future but I am starting to be a believer in wrapping it all up in real neat package somehow. About daylight a couple squirrels commensed complaining about the intrusion. One dropped right on. . . well lets say I just began to worry about what they eat in the winter time. Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:54 PM > I am interested in hearing some ideas on how you set-up your bed on primitive outings. The climate would be cool night time temps in the upper 20s-upper 30s but no snow on the ground. What do you use to insulate your body from the ground? (modern would be a foam pad and primitive, the way I have done it, is 6-9 inches of pine needles or leaves) But what about when there is little debris on the ground? Primarily chapparal? Are their any period correct alternatives to the modern foam pad that one would carry? What goes on top of this? Ground cloth (dimensions), shelter cloth (dimensions; do you use one or do you simply fold an oversized ground cloth over you to act a shelter from rain/snow? Blanket(s). How are they arranged? Any specifics? (folded in half, thirds, pinned, sewn together) > > I have never gone on a mountain man era primitive trek. I have gone completely primitive (no pack, no sleeping bag/blanket, made my own shelter, debris for warmth) and modern backpacking but I wanted to know what to pack for a mountain man era trek. > > Looking forward to hear your experiences. Lou > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 09 Mar 2004 22:01:50 -0800 Lou, I like to take my new buffalo robe these days, but on a recent trip I also stuck in a good Whitney Blanket. I've slept warm with two Whitney's in the past but always had them tucked into a sewn up oil cloth bedroll so they didn't kick out. And I've carried a sheepskin trimmed down to just enough width and like Crazy says, three quarters length. I've also found that baring the sheep skin and etc. that if I take the time to dig a hip hole (I have to sleep on my side anyway or I keep myself and everyone else awake with my snoring, on my side I just keep everyone else awake-I sleep fine) that I really get a good nights rest. It helps too if I can find some old pine needle duff to pad things with or even thin the branches off a fir tree to make a bed pad. One trick I just started using in the past couple years that really helps me sleep warm with a minimum of blanket weight is to fold and tie the blankets just so. I fold them length wise in three layers, like they taught you in boot camp. I then gather up the foot end accordion style and throw a hank of rope or twine around that bundle about 5" or 6" up from the end using a clove hitch or etc. to cinch the folds up. When I climb into the bed roll my feet don't kick out, there are extra layers of wool either above or below my feet and I still have plenty of length to lay full stretched out with blanket enough to pull over my head. I also go to bed with everything on that I needed to stay warm out of the blankets other than my coat but would wear it too if need be. I also put on dry winter mocs so I can get up mid way through the night without having to put on cold foot wear and even if the mocs are a bit wet they seem to dry out over night on my feet. Anyway, the cloth bed roll keeps the air off the blankets so they are extra warm. The buffalo rob flesh side out does the same thing but it's not water repellent or water proof so............. I do have little ties across the butt end of the rob to tie it closed a bit so my feet don't kick out. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 04:28:46 EST --part1_4e.28c59a04.2d8039ce_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn Ya forgot to mention a couple of things in your post. That first night when ya had trouble with the snow getting in and your feet getting push out. We got a good four inches of new snow that night that came in side ways do to the high winds we got that night as well. I found out after we got home all the roads around us were closed that night do to white out conditions and blowing snow. Little did we know at the time, bedding down under the pines did a good job of protect us from a lot of that wind and snow. No wonder you slept warmer that second night that hole Richard dug was half way to China. That snow was a good four feet deep or better under that tree. Another Idea I seen done at this camp that is worth a try is to have holes around the bottom edge and up about half way on the sides of your Buffalo robe. This way you can lace it closed to make kind of a sleeping bag out of it. With a robe done like this there is no way you can kick out of it in the night. This is the way that Alice the one Lady that was there by her self had her bed roll made up and it seemed to work quit well for her. See ya down the trail. Crazy Cyot --part1_4e.28c59a04.2d8039ce_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn
Ya forgot to mention a couple of things in your post. That first night w= hen ya had trouble with the snow getting in and your feet getting push out.=20= We got a good four inches of new snow that night that came in side way= s do to the high winds we got that night as well. I found out after we got h= ome all the roads around us were closed that night do to white out condition= s and blowing snow. Little did we know at the time, bedding down under the p= ines did a good job of protect us from a lot of that wind and snow.
No wonder you slept warmer that second night that hole Richard dug was h= alf way to China. That snow was a good four feet deep or better under that t= ree.
Another Idea I seen done at this camp that is worth a try is to have hol= es around the bottom edge and up about half way on the sides of your Buffalo= robe. This way you can lace it closed to make kind of a sleeping bag out of= it. With a robe done like this there is no way you can kick out of it in th= e night. This is the way that Alice the one Lady that was there by her self=20= had her bed roll made up and it seemed to work quit well for her.
See ya down the trail.
Crazy Cyot --part1_4e.28c59a04.2d8039ce_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looms Date: 10 Mar 2004 09:15:38 EST --part1_37.45286a58.2d807d0a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn It is now the tenth. Who ended up with the machinery? I know the Saddlers wanted to clear off that property (the mill was built by direction of Brigham Young in 1875) and sell it for housing. There was an effort to stop this because it was listed in "Historic Sites". Dick James --part1_37.45286a58.2d807d0a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn
It is now the tenth. Who ended up with the machinery? I know the= Saddlers wanted to clear off that property (the mill was built by direction= of Brigham Young in 1875) and sell it for housing. There was an effor= t to stop this because it was listed in "Historic Sites".

Dick James --part1_37.45286a58.2d807d0a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 16:50:45 -0500 Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo robes? Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 15:26:40 -0700 Lou, The best source of braintan and smoked buffalo robes is Wes Housler http://www.braintan.com/bison/wes.html. You want to get smoked braintan, as the commercial tanned hides won't stand up to repeatedly getting damp or wet, which will invariably happen in our avocation. Wes' robes are cheaper than for what many are selling commercial tanned robes. I find sheepskins on ebay and occasionally at the thrift stores. As Always, Your Obedient Servant, Gene "Bead Shooter" Hickman ----- Original Message ----- ... Can anyone provide me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo robes? > Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 15:05:07 -0800 Places like Tandy Leather and "The Leather Factory" ( also a Tandy co.) sell sheep robes. Fellas like Wes Hosler sell buffalo. Don't have any contact info. Sorry. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:50 PM > Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo robes? > > Lou > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 19:45:19 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/10/2004 1:51:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, MunevarL@aol.com writes: Can anyone provide me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo robes? Lou, Don't know if your near one, but I've seen good prices at Costco. Here's a couple of links to Buffalo robes... Braintanned Buffalo Robes, Tipis, Rawhide & Parfleche: by Wes Housler Absaroka Western Designs & Tannery, historical reproductions, furs, robes, rawh Moscow Hide and Fur Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 3/10/2004 1:51:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, MunevarL= @aol.com writes:

Can anyone provide me with a link for a compan= y that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo rob= es?

Lou, Don't know if= your near one, but I've seen good prices at Costco.

Here's a couple of= links to Buffalo robes...

Braintanned Buffalo=20= Robes, Tipis, Rawhide & Parfleche: by Wes Housler

&n= bsp;

Absaroka Western Designs & Tann= ery, historical reproductions, furs, robes, rawh

&n= bsp;
Moscow Hide and Fur<= FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>

&n= bsp;

Barney
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 17:24:42 -0800 Lou, check on E-bay. I've seen them there. I've seen them sold at K-mart, etc... to be put under a babies sleeping area. Good ventilation, etc.... Randy > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 3/10/04 1:50:46 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding > > Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo robes? > > Lou > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 17:27:54 -0800 Wes does sell partial robes for saddle blankets, etc... If you can't afford a new robe, maybe a partial would be good enough. Check him out at http://www.braintan.com/bison/wes.html yfab, Randy > [Original Message] > From: RP Lahti > To: > Date: 3/10/04 3:05:08 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding > > Places like Tandy Leather and "The Leather Factory" ( also a Tandy co.) sell > sheep robes. Fellas like Wes Hosler sell buffalo. Don't have any contact > info. Sorry. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:50 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding > > > > Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned > hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with > a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link > for buffalo robes? > > > > Lou > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trampas4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 01:35:24 GMT Buffalo robes and blankets thats the way to go. I have never seen sheep skin robes mention in any period writtings from the mountaineers. If you are going to look on ebay look up buffalo hides or robes, you will find them, and if you play it right for a good price. Those robes of Wes are very nice, used a trail partners a couple of times, much lighter than commercial tan. His prices are good to. I am going that way. Others in our party also add saddle bankets to there bed, great padding. Bill Gantic, Baker Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 20:26:57 -0600 Check leather shops that cater to saddle makers for big, thick sheepskins. I got mine at The Leather Factory, which I think has been bought by Tandy. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:24 PM > Lou, check on E-bay. I've seen them there. I've seen them sold at K-mart, > etc... to be put under a babies sleeping area. Good ventilation, etc.... > Randy > > > > [Original Message] > > From: > > To: > > Date: 3/10/04 1:50:46 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding > > > > Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned > tanned hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide > me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have > a link for buffalo robes? > > > > Lou > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JIM BRYAN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 23:21:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0179_01C406F6.62B83F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also, Leather Unlimited Corp of Belgium, Wisconsin has them in their = catalog which also has other buckskinning books, etc. (some of the = Indian stuff is hokey plastic, but that's the way with most of these = catalogs...). It's a pretty good one all in all..their phone number is = (800) 993-2889. Absalom ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lanney Ratcliff=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Check leather shops that cater to saddle makers for big, thick = sheepskins. I got mine at The Leather Factory, which I think has been bought by = Tandy. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Randal Bublitz" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:24 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding > Lou, check on E-bay. I've seen them there. I've seen them sold at K-mart, > etc... to be put under a babies sleeping area. Good ventilation, = etc.... > Randy > > > > [Original Message] > > From: > > To: > > Date: 3/10/04 1:50:46 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding > > > > Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you = mentioned > tanned hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone = provide > me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do = you have > a link for buffalo robes? > > > > Lou > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0179_01C406F6.62B83F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Also, Leather Unlimited Corp of Belgium, Wisconsin has them in = their=20 catalog which also has other buckskinning books, etc. (some of the = Indian stuff=20 is hokey plastic, but that's the way with most of these catalogs...). = It's a=20 pretty good one all in all..their phone number is (800) = 993-2889.

Absalom

----- Original Message -----

From: Lanney Ratcliff

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 = 8:26=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Bedding

Check leather shops that cater to saddle makers for = big, thick=20 sheepskins.
I got mine at The Leather Factory, which I think has = been=20 bought by Tandy.
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From: = "Randal=20 Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net>To:=20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Sent:=20 Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 Bedding

> Lou, check on E-bay. I've seen them = there. =20 I've seen them sold at
K-mart,
> etc... to be put under a = babies=20 sleeping area. Good ventilation, etc....
>=20 Randy
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > = <MunevarL@aol.com>
> >=20 To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
>=20 > Date: 3/10/04 1:50:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 Bedding
> >
> > Thanks to the camp for your=20 suggestions. A number of you mentioned
> tanned hair-on = sheepskin=20 as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide
> me with a = link for a=20 company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you
have
> = a link=20 for buffalo robes?
> >
> > Lou
> >
> = >=20 ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
>= =20 ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

--------= --------------
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_0179_01C406F6.62B83F60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 22:46:26 -0700 Where do you live? I have a friend that deals in hides/furs etc in Utah. Wynn ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:50 PM > Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo robes? > > Lou > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looms Date: 10 Mar 2004 22:52:01 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C406F2.4D1CC580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dunno what is happening with the stuff. I did not really look at the = notice to see if there was a contsct number you could call to find out = where the looms are going. Wynn ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SWzypher@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:15 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looms Wynn It is now the tenth. Who ended up with the machinery? I know the = Saddlers wanted to clear off that property (the mill was built by = direction of Brigham Young in 1875) and sell it for housing. There was = an effort to stop this because it was listed in "Historic Sites". Dick James ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C406F2.4D1CC580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dunno what is happening with the = stuff. I did=20 not really look at the notice to see if there was a contsct number you = could=20 call to find out where the looms are going.

Wynn

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SWzypher@aol.com=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 = 7:15=20 AM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Looms

Wynn
It is now the = tenth. Who=20 ended up with the machinery? I know the Saddlers wanted to clear = off=20 that property (the mill was built by direction of Brigham Young in = 1875) and=20 sell it for housing. There was an effort to stop this because it = was=20 listed in "Historic Sites".

Dick James=20 ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C406F2.4D1CC580-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 01:06:08 EST --part1_1ca.1bb0ab1b.2d815bd0_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1078985168" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in Southern California. Lou Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I live in Southern California.

Lou
--part1_1ca.1bb0ab1b.2d815bd0_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-ya04.mx.aol.com (rly-ya04.mail.aol.com [172.18.141.36]) by air-ya02.mail.aol.com (v98.10) with ESMTP id MAILINYA21-156404ffb3238; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:38:34 -0500 Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7]) by rly-ya04.mx.aol.com (v98.5) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYA42-156404ffb3238; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:37:58 -0500 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1B1It7-0004Jj-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:37:45 -0700 Received: from [198.60.22.207] (helo=mgr7.xmission.com ident=mail) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1B1It5-0004Je-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:37:43 -0700 Received: from [67.128.36.2] (helo=mail.pcu.net) by mgr7.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B1It2-0000T4-SR for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:37:40 -0700 Received: from user ([207.173.103.89]) by mail.pcu.net (Merak 7.2.0) with SMTP id BKA74422 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:37:30 -0700 Message-ID: <006901c4072c$33e94ea0$5967adcf@user> References: <4FE3AB76.5201E25F.007E2A9E@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-RegEx-Filter: regex_whitelist.xml Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on mgr7.xmission.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=8.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: cheyenne@pcu.net X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Mon Jan 26 13:00:24 MST 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com X-AOL-IP: 198.60.22.7 Where do you live? I have a friend that deals in hides/furs etc in Utah. Wynn ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:50 PM > Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with a link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for buffalo robes? > > Lou > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --part1_1ca.1bb0ab1b.2d815bd0_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 10 Mar 2004 19:15:16 -0700 > Thanks to the camp for your suggestions. A number of you mentioned tanned > hair-on sheepskin as a good surface to sleep on. Can anyone provide me with a > link for a company that sells sheepskin? Separately, do you have a link for > buffalo robes? > > Lou > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Give us a call Thanks Joe -- Visit our web page absarokawesterndesign.com Call us for details on our custom tanning 307-455-2440 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Ways Mtn Men died Date: 11 Mar 2004 08:34:41 -0700 "RICK TABOR" blackshirt75@hotmail.com wrote: <> This has often been repeated, but I have yet to see any proof that = strangulated hernia led to a single voyageur death in the 1774-1821 period that I = focus on. I have found exactly three cases of hernia (called "rupture" at that = time): a man on the Bay who was put on sick detail until the ship came in the spring = to take him back home, a North West Company (NWC) voyageur who was suspected of malingering when he claimed that he had "rupture", and a NWC pork-eater = who was sent home only a few weeks after leaving Montreal. No deaths!! The sashes were a fashion statement; many items of clothing were issued = to voyageurs as part of their NWC contract, but sashes were not among them. = Shirts, pants, and handkerchiefs were. I have yet to find any period document = stating that sashes were worn to prevent rupture.=20 A few years ago, I did my own study of causes of death amongst = voyageurs; the top two were drowning and starvation. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bear attacks Date: 11 Mar 2004 10:49:20 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C40756.8257CAB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee Teter and I said, I'll look up that one and read it, Lee. Frank> I tried a search at Barnes & Noble for the Gowans book but they = didn't list it although they do have several other titles by him. A search for 'grizzly' brought up more than 300 titles. 'Ole Ephriam = must be one of the most writ about critters ever. One could spend a = lifetime just reading about griz. I can't read all 300 but might pick up one or two of the titles. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C40756.8257CAB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lee Teter and I said,

    <Modern books are great for learning about = the=20 animal, but Fred =3D
Gowans' book Mountain Man & Grizzly is the = best one=20 for people who like =3D
this site. Mr. Gowans compiled almost every = recorded=20 instance of grizzly =3D
encounters known, from Lewis & Clark to = late era=20 mountaineers>
    I'll look up that one and read = it,=20 Lee.
Frank>

    I tried a search at Barnes & Noble for the = Gowans=20 book but they didn't list it although they do have several other titles = by=20 him.

    A search for 'grizzly' brought up more than 300 = titles.=20 'Ole Ephriam must be one of the most writ about critters ever. One could = spend a=20 lifetime just reading about griz.

    I can't read all 300 but might pick up one or = two of the=20 titles.

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C40756.8257CAB0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear attacks Date: 11 Mar 2004 08:56:27 -0800 (PST) --0-1858144181-1079024187=:62238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Frank Fusco wrote: I tried a search at Barnes & Noble for the Gowans book but they didn't list it although they do have several other titles by him. I'll lend you mine if you send your address offline. Museum of the Fur Tade may have some and I think Bents Fort gift shop had some. It was recently reprinted. I'll see if I can locate some of them. If not I'll send mine. Lee Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-1858144181-1079024187=:62238 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Frank Fusco <Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com> wrote:

    I tried a search at Barnes & Noble for the Gowans book but they didn't list it although they do have several other titles by him.

I'll lend you mine if you send your address offline. Museum of the Fur Tade may have some and I think Bents Fort gift shop had some. It was recently reprinted. I'll see if I can locate some of them. If not I'll send mine.

Lee

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster. --0-1858144181-1079024187=:62238-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 12:02:45 EST --part1_1a9.21424bb3.2d81f5b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/10/04 5:37:56 PM, trampas4@juno.com writes: > Buffalo robes and blankets thats the way to go. I have never seen sheep > skin robes mention in any period writtings from the mountaineers. > I sure agree with you on the buffalo robes and blankets, and doubt the mountaineers would have used a sheep skin, especially with buffalo robes readily available. The problem is money... I checked on eBay, and buffalo hides sell for $500-$1000, while you can get a nice sheep skin for about $60-$75. I've got two buffalo robes (one 50' square!) but unless I've got a toboggan or horse, I'll carry only my smaller robe, a ground cloth, and sleep on the sheep skin pad.. Magpie --part1_1a9.21424bb3.2d81f5b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/10/04 5:37:56 PM, trampas4@juno.com writes:

Buffalo robes and bla= nkets thats the way to go. I have never seen sheep skin robes mention in any= period writtings from the mountaineers.

I sure agree with you on the buffalo robes and blankets, and doubt the mount= aineers would have used a sheep skin, especially with buffalo robes readily=20= available. The problem is money... I checked on eBay, and buffalo hides sell= for $500-$1000, while you can get a nice sheep skin for about $60-$75.

I've got two buffalo robes (one 50' square!) but unless I've got a toboggan=20= or horse, I'll carry only my smaller robe, a ground cloth, and sleep on the=20= sheep skin pad..

Magpie
--part1_1a9.21424bb3.2d81f5b5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 15:09:30 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/11/2004 9:12:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, SWcushing@aol.com writes: sleep on the sheep skin pad They are comfy, but as already said, aren't going to work at primitive events. Covering it in a canvas 'bag' makes it into a bedroll usable at most places. Panther has a bedrool thats 'double' size and slit down the side. The bottom is your ground cloth and if it's wet out the top flap pulled over you becomes a top cloth. You're sleeping on the sheepskin and with a good blanket or two, depending on the weather, your toast (in a good way)! It's a good solution if you aren't ready for a Buffler... Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 3/11/2004 9:12:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, SWcushin= g@aol.com writes:

sleep on the sheep skin pad

They are comfy,&nb= sp;but as already said, aren't going to work at primitive eve= nts. Co= vering it in a canvas 'bag' makes it into a bedroll usable at= most places.

&n= bsp;

Panther has a bedr= ool thats 'double' size and slit down the side. T<= /FONT>he= bottom is your ground cloth and if it'= s wet out the top flap pulled over you becomes a top cloth.

You're sleeping on the sheepskin and with a good blan= ket or two, depending on the weather, your toast (in a good way)! =

&n= bsp;

It's a good soluti= on if you aren't ready for a Buffler...

&n= bsp;

Barney
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ben" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 15:19:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C4077C.4C9E5300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Magpie, You don't happen to have a picture of the buffalo you got that 50' sqare = robe from have ya That's the biggest darn buffalo I ever heard of = :) I know ya meant 50 square feet...but just had to say it. 50 square feet = is a darn big buff. Ben ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SWcushing@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding In a message dated 3/10/04 5:37:56 PM, trampas4@juno.com writes: Buffalo robes and blankets thats the way to go. I have never seen = sheep skin robes mention in any period writtings from the mountaineers. I sure agree with you on the buffalo robes and blankets, and doubt the = mountaineers would have used a sheep skin, especially with buffalo robes = readily available. The problem is money... I checked on eBay, and = buffalo hides sell for $500-$1000, while you can get a nice sheep skin = for about $60-$75. I've got two buffalo robes (one 50' square!) but unless I've got a = toboggan or horse, I'll carry only my smaller robe, a ground cloth, and = sleep on the sheep skin pad.. Magpie ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C4077C.4C9E5300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Magpie,

You don't happen to have a picture of = the buffalo=20 you got that 50' sqare robe from have ya<VBG> That's the biggest = darn=20 buffalo I ever heard of :)

I know ya meant 50 square feet...but = just had to=20 say it. 50 square feet is a darn big buff.

Ben

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SWcushing@aol.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 = 10:02=20 AM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Bedding

In a message dated 3/10/04 5:37:56 = PM, trampas4@juno.com = writes:

Buffalo robes and blankets thats the way to go. = I have=20 never seen sheep skin robes mention in any period writtings from the = mountaineers.

I sure agree with you on the buffalo robes = and=20 blankets, and doubt the mountaineers would have used a sheep skin, = especially=20 with buffalo robes readily available. The problem is money... I = checked on=20 eBay, and buffalo hides sell for $500-$1000, while you can get a nice = sheep=20 skin for about $60-$75.

I've got two buffalo robes (one 50' = square!)=20 but unless I've got a toboggan or horse, I'll carry only my smaller = robe, a=20 ground cloth, and sleep on the sheep skin=20 pad..

Magpie
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C4077C.4C9E5300-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 20:22:38 EST --part1_c6.2933610c.2d826ade_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/11/04 2:20:37 PM, beb1@sisna.com writes: >=20 > I know ya meant 50 square feet...but just had to say it.=A0 50 square feet= is=20 > a darn big buff. >=20 > Ben >=20 > Ooooouch....! That hurt ,Ben. ...but here's a jpg of that monster: bull.jpg (JG Image, 1000x750 pixels)=20 http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bull.jpg ....and I swear he squares 25'X25'!!!! Magpie --part1_c6.2933610c.2d826ade_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/11/04 2:20:37 PM, beb1@sisna.com writes:

I know ya meant 50 square feet...but just had to say it.=A0 50 square feet= is a darn big buff.

Ben

Ooooouch....! That hurt ,Ben. <G> ...but here's a jpg=20= of that monster:
bull.jpg (JG Image,= 1000x750 pixels) http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bull.jpg

....and I swear he squares 25'X25'!!!!

Magpie --part1_c6.2933610c.2d826ade_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 17:55:23 -0800 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Magpie, Ya know...you could be cuter, but I know who I'm sleeping with at the next winter doin's . I'm glad it was you who won that buff hunt raffle, couldn't have happened to a better brother. (except me, of course ). You can't beat a good buff robe for cold doin's. Yfab, Randy ----- Original Message ----- Ooooouch....! That hurt ,Ben. ...but here's a jpg of that monster: bull.jpg (JG Image, 1000x750 pixels) http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bull.jpg ....and I swear he squares 25'X25'!!!! Magpie ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Magpie,   Ya know...you could be cuter, but I know who I'm sleeping with at the next winter doin's <g>. I'm glad it was you who won that buff hunt raffle, couldn't have happened to a better brother. (except me, of course <s>). You can't beat a good buff robe for cold doin's. Yfab, Randy

----- Original Message -----

Ooooouch....! That hurt ,Ben. <G> ...but here's a jpg of that monster:
bull.jpg (JG Image, 1000x750 pixels) http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bull.jpg

....and I swear he squares 25'X25'!!!!

Magpie
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Lessman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 18:42:32 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C40798.9D229810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magpie, Do you see what you started.....now everyone will be flashing = their big buffalo at Randy to get him to sleep with them. LOL Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randal Bublitz=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:55 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Magpie, Ya know...you could be cuter, but I know who I'm sleeping = with at the next winter doin's . I'm glad it was you who won that = buff hunt raffle, couldn't have happened to a better brother. (except = me, of course ). You can't beat a good buff robe for cold doin's. = Yfab, Randy ----- Original Message -----=20 Ooooouch....! That hurt ,Ben. ...but here's a jpg of that = monster: bull.jpg (JG Image, 1000x750 pixels) = http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bull.jpg ....and I swear he squares 25'X25'!!!! Magpie ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C40798.9D229810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Magpie, Do you see what you = started.....now=20 everyone will be flashing their big buffalo at Randy to get him to sleep = with=20 them. LOL

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Randal=20 Bublitz
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 = 5:55=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Bedding

Magpie,   Ya = know...you could=20 be cuter, but I know who I'm sleeping with at the next winter doin's=20 <g>. I'm glad it was you who won that buff hunt raffle, = couldn't=20 have happened to a better brother. (except me, of course=20 <s>). You can't beat a good buff robe for cold = doin's. Yfab,=20 Randy

----- Original Message -----

Ooooouch....! That hurt ,Ben. = <G> ...but=20 here's a jpg of that monster:
bull.jpg (JG = Image,=20 1000x750 pixels) = http://members.aol.com/swcushing/bull.jpg

....and=20 I swear he squares 25'X25'!!!!

Magpie=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C40798.9D229810-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 20:54:42 -0700 (MST) Lou, Unless your rich or retired and rich, go with wool blankets, you won't be disappointed. Like I said before, if brain tanned buff hides are so fantastic, why did EVERY indian want wool blankets? bb > I live in Southern California. > > Lou > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 23:21:43 EST --part1_db.5800c93.2d8294d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/11/04 7:55:15 PM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > Like I said before, if brain tanned buff hides are so fantastic, why > did EVERY indian want wool blankets? > BECAUSE THEY HAD TONS OF BRAIN TANNED ROBES... BEAVER! They wanted wool blankets when it wasn't cold out....for crying out loud. Don't make me come over there.... Magpie --part1_db.5800c93.2d8294d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/11/04 7:55:15 PM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:

Like I said before, i= f brain tanned buff hides are so fantastic, why
did EVERY indian want wool blankets?

BECAUSE THEY HAD TONS OF BRAIN TANNED ROBES... BEAVER! They wanted wool blan= kets when it wasn't cold out....for crying out loud.    Don'= t make me come over there....

Magpie --part1_db.5800c93.2d8294d7_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 21:42:04 -0800 bb, Why? Good question. Have you run down many buffalo on horse back? How about skinning and gutting such a critter and processing not only the meat but that big thick hide? And if those foolish white eyes will trade a blanket for a few pelts that are easy enough to come by why not? Besides white man's possessions are magic. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:54 PM > Lou, > Unless your rich or retired and rich, go with wool blankets, you won't > be disappointed. > Like I said before, if brain tanned buff hides are so fantastic, why > did EVERY indian want wool blankets? > bb > > > > > > > I live in Southern California. > > > > Lou > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 22:22:37 -0800 bb, It wasn't easy for me to give up over $600 for a 5' x 8' cow buff robe, brain tanned by Wes Housler. I'm a working stiff, mechanic. I had it a while before I really gave it a COLD weather test. I first used it in the cold up near Donner Pass , in the Sierra Mtns, in mid November. It was snowy and about 0 degrees. I used it and a whitney blanket inside a canvas tent. My boots froze, everything froze...except...ME. I woke up in the morning and it took me a minute to realize where I was. I was warm and cozy, and in a very cold situation. At that moment I realized a brain tan buff robe was a good investment. I have since camped in the same area, similar conditions. The first night I got cold, because I pushed off the covers. The second night I put the blanket under me, buff robe over me...and slept like a baby. I take good care off my buff robe. I hang it on a clothes line after every use, and beat it with a tennis racket to clean. I have had it 5 years, or so, and it looks and acts just like it did when it was new. I realize that $600 -700 is a lot of money, but I am sure glad I made this investment. It also makes a difference in whether my wife will camp with me , or not. She's done several canoe trips, etc.. in summer. But, if it is cold she wants to stay home...UNLESS I have the buff robe. In my opinion, it is a good investment. Yfab, Randy > [Original Message] > From: RP Lahti > To: > Date: 3/11/04 9:42:05 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding > > bb, > > Why? Good question. Have you run down many buffalo on horse back? How about > skinning and gutting such a critter and processing not only the meat but > that big thick hide? And if those foolish white eyes will trade a blanket > for a few pelts that are easy enough to come by why not? Besides white man's > possessions are magic. > > Capt. Lahti' > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:54 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding > > > > Lou, > > Unless your rich or retired and rich, go with wool blankets, you won't > > be disappointed. > > Like I said before, if brain tanned buff hides are so fantastic, why > > did EVERY indian want wool blankets? > > bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > I live in Southern California. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry" Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 23:14:16 -0700 go with wool blankets, you won't be disappointed. just a bit of advice from my recent experience. Went on our fall trip with a ground cloth, 2 wool blankets and a tarp shelter. made the mistake of just grabbing a couple of blanket and did not check them for size. 1 blanket under me, and the other was too small to fold over me. spent a long cold night. so first off, check the blankets for size and make sure they go over you. I would recommend you get blankets that are at least 60"x80". This is what most 3 1/2 point blankets measure out as. at this size, I recommend using a couple of blanket pins so when you roll over, you keep covered and tie off the bottom. for winter camp I used 4 3 1/2 point blankets. laid one out, the next was laid half over it and the original then had other half folded, then the seconded folded over that making an envelope with 2 layers under you and 2 over you, then enclosed that in 2 additional blankets. This I then placed in an old canvas mattress bag with ties on the side. I had a sheep skin and buffalo robe under me which were on top of a waterproof tarp (iron oxide and linseed oil). slept warm as long as I kept my head under cover. Be careful of the linseed oil tarp in the winter, it gets brittle. If your partner isn't careful, he can run his hawk thru it when he is breaking up the packed snow and ice to prepare when he is going to bed down. dogbone ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 23:15:50 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C407BE.CB250C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't make me come over there.... Magpie OOOO I dare ya to come over! Oh and bring some trade goods too. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C407BE.CB250C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't make=20 me come over there....

Magpie

OOOO I dare ya to come over! Oh and bring some trade goods=20 too.

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C407BE.CB250C40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 11 Mar 2004 22:35:44 -0800 Does anyone have experience with paired blankets...ie: tow 3 point end to end (not ripped). This sounds intersting to me, as you could lay on one, fold it over on top of you, and not have it easy for feet to stick out. This is a problem I have had, as I am over 6' tall. I pull the blanket over my head, and expose feet. I don't realize it until feet are COOOOLD. Yfab, Randy > [Original Message] > From: Larry > To: > Date: 3/11/04 10:18:00 PM > Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding > > go with wool blankets, you won't be disappointed. > > just a bit of advice from my recent experience. Went on our fall trip with > a ground cloth, 2 wool blankets and a tarp shelter. made the mistake of > just grabbing a couple of blanket and did not check them for size. 1 > blanket under me, and the other was too small to fold over me. spent a long > cold night. so first off, check the blankets for size and make sure they go > over you. I would recommend you get blankets that are at least 60"x80". > This is what most 3 1/2 point blankets measure out as. at this size, I > recommend using a couple of blanket pins so when you roll over, you keep > covered and tie off the bottom. > > for winter camp I used 4 3 1/2 point blankets. laid one out, the next was > laid half over it and the original then had other half folded, then the > seconded folded over that making an envelope with 2 layers under you and 2 > over you, then enclosed that in 2 additional blankets. This I then placed > in an old canvas mattress bag with ties on the side. I had a sheep skin and > buffalo robe under me which were on top of a waterproof tarp (iron oxide and > linseed oil). slept warm as long as I kept my head under cover. Be careful > of the linseed oil tarp in the winter, it gets brittle. If your partner > isn't careful, he can run his hawk thru it when he is breaking up the packed > snow and ice to prepare when he is going to bed down. > dogbone > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 12 Mar 2004 02:36:08 EST --part1_111.2f56148f.2d82c268_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/11/04 10:20:23 PM, L.Renney@bresnan.net writes: > OOOO I dare ya to come over! Oh and bring some trade goods too. > Haaaaaa....! Works with my kids anyway. --part1_111.2f56148f.2d82c268_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/11/04 10:20:23 PM, L.Renney@bresnan.net writes:

OOOO I dare ya to com= e over! Oh and bring some trade goods too.

Haaaaaa....! Works with my kids anyway. --part1_111.2f56148f.2d82c268_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 12 Mar 2004 17:32:54 -0700 (MST) First off, Magpie, please don't come over and kick my butt. There is already a line here in Montana kicking my butt. Randy, sounds like your brain tanned robe is a good bed. I'm curious about other robes. I have only a commercial tanned hide which I know is inferior to a brain tanned one. The worse thing I hate about it is when it gets wet or soaked. Certainly that happens to brain tanned ones. Is it as much a pain to dry out as mine? Speaking of brain tanned robes, I just got my Traditional Tanners catalog in the mail. This is Matt Richards company. I've never seen his catalog before and it is nice. I met him and his gang at Vipond Park at the Western National awhile ago. Nice bunch of free spirits. His prices however look a lot higher than Wes Housler's. $895 for Matt's and $600 for Wes's! I can buy a lot of wool blankets and Madeira wine with that much cash! bb > bb, It wasn't easy for me to give up over $600 for a 5' x 8' cow buff > robe, brain tanned by Wes Housler. I'm a working stiff, mechanic. I had > it a while before I really gave it a COLD weather test. I first used it > in > the cold up near Donner Pass , in the Sierra Mtns, in mid November. It > was > snowy and about degrees. I used it and a whitney blanket inside a > canvas > tent. My boots froze, everything froze...except...ME. I woke up in the > morning and it took me a minute to realize where I was. I was warm and > cozy, and in a very cold situation. At that moment I realized a brain tan > buff robe was a good investment. I have since camped in the same area, > similar conditions. The first night I got cold, because I pushed off the > covers. The second night I put the blanket under me, buff robe over > me...and slept like a baby. I take good care off my buff robe. I hang it > on a clothes line after every use, and beat it with a tennis racket to > clean. I have had it 5 years, or so, and it looks and acts just like it > did when it was new. I realize that $600 -700 is a lot of money, but I am > sure glad I made this investment. It also makes a difference in whether > my > wife will camp with me , or not. She's done several canoe trips, etc.. in > summer. But, if it is cold she wants to stay home...UNLESS I have the > buff > robe. In my opinion, it is a good investment. Yfab, Randy > > >> [Original Message] >> From: RP Lahti >> To: >> Date: 3/11/04 9:42:05 PM >> Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding >> >> bb, >> >> Why? Good question. Have you run down many buffalo on horse back? How > about >> skinning and gutting such a critter and processing not only the meat but >> that big thick hide? And if those foolish white eyes will trade a >> blanket >> for a few pelts that are easy enough to come by why not? Besides white > man's >> possessions are magic. >> >> Capt. Lahti' >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:54 PM >> Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding >> >> >> > Lou, >> > Unless your rich or retired and rich, go with wool blankets, you > won't >> > be disappointed. >> > Like I said before, if brain tanned buff hides are so fantastic, >> why >> > did EVERY indian want wool blankets? >> > bb >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I live in Southern California. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 12 Mar 2004 17:49:01 -0700 (MST) Capt., I have shot one buff as my neighbor raises them. I have gutted and skinned and fleshed several and it is no easy chore I know. Without a good horse or a pickup to flip it over it is a real big job. It is no wonder why the buff was the King of the Plains! But what does that matter to you and me though? The women did all that work anyway? Perhaps the same reason the indian covets the white man's possesions a white man covets the indians? Sometimes I think the brain tanned buff hide is as much a statis symbol as it is functional. But of course, I could be wrong. bb > bb, > > Why? Good question. Have you run down many buffalo on horse back? How > about > skinning and gutting such a critter and processing not only the meat but > that big thick hide? And if those foolish white eyes will trade a blanket > for a few pelts that are easy enough to come by why not? Besides white > man's > possessions are magic. > > Capt. Lahti' > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:54 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding > > >> Lou, >> Unless your rich or retired and rich, go with wool blankets, you >> won't >> be disappointed. >> Like I said before, if brain tanned buff hides are so fantastic, why >> did EVERY indian want wool blankets? >> bb >> >> >> >> >> >> > I live in Southern California. >> > >> > Lou >> > >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 12 Mar 2004 18:08:24 -0800 bb, My robe got pretty wet while I was in Texas last month. The rain came down hard and long. I was wet, yet still warm. I strung a rope between two trees the next day and hung the robe over it, and then left for the Alamo. When I came back to camp that late afternoon the robe was dry and fluffy. After I got home I did what I always do after using it out on the ground. I hung it on my clothesline and worked it over good with a tennis racket to knock out dust, chaf, etc.... The robe is as pretty as ever. I've never had a commercial tanned robe, but I understand that they are heavier and more expensive. Wes's robes seem to be the most reasonably priced ones available, but they are still an expensive luxary. I'm happy I took the plunge though. I expect that with good care it will last me a looong time. I used an elk robe before I got the buff. The problem with it is that the hairs break and you wake up in the morning feeling like you had a haircut (scratchy). I solved this by using a tight woven mexican blanket between me and the elk robe. It is still a poor substitute for a good buff robe. I know Matt's website ( braintan.com ) , but haven't seen his catalog. I learned a lot about braintanning from Matt's book and website. A few good blankets will be half the price of a nice robe. See you on the trail. Yfab, Randy > [Original Message] > From: > > > Randy, sounds like your brain tanned robe is a good bed. I'm curious > about other robes. I have only a commercial tanned hide which I know > is inferior to a brain tanned one. The worse thing I hate about it is > when it gets wet or soaked. Certainly that happens to brain tanned > ones. Is it as much a pain to dry out as mine? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 13 Mar 2004 08:57:34 -0700 (MST) I need some brief loading info for .50 cal rifles. I don't know the twist or make. Just some simple loads for two friends that own .50 cal. Thanks a ton, bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: MtMan-List: Open Range Date: 13 Mar 2004 09:14:48 -0700 (MST) Just watched "Open Range". Pretty violent movie. I have to say, I still think "Shane" is the king of all "shoot up the bad guys in town" movies. It was much less violent too yet was able to convey the message with simple scripts and the looks on actors faces. Then in the end Shane left town as there is "no living with a killing". Yep, Hollywood just can't make them like they used too. They think more violence and special effects will somehow make it better. Rent both copies of Cape Fear and you'll see what I mean. The original was every bit as scary yet much less violent then the remake. And still it was scary. The remake is garbage in my opinion. I took one look at the scenery in Open Range and told my wife "That is Alberta!" I was right too, had to watch a list of credits five minutes long to see I was right. Pretty scenery in Open Range, I'll give him credit for that. But then Shane's backdrop ain't too shabby either. Sorry for the kind of off topic opinion. They did have bp pistols anyway. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ben" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 13 Mar 2004 09:19:38 -0700 Hi beaverboy, I'm far from an expert, but 90 grains of FFg gives me the best accuracy in my .50 Hawkins. I started out at 60 grains and went clear up to 110. 110 was blasting out un burned powder for the muzzle. ( I was shooting over snow so it was easy to see). My best advise is have them start out around 60 or 70 grains and move up in 10 grain increments until they find a load their rifle likes. For what it's worth :) Ben ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 8:57 AM > I need some brief loading info for .50 cal rifles. I don't know the twist > or make. Just some simple loads for two friends that own .50 cal. > Thanks a ton, > bb > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Frazier" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 13 Mar 2004 12:20:04 -0600 Research into 18th (early 19th) century loads indicate the standard powder charge for rifles was 1/4 the ball weight. For a 50 cal ball weighing 188 grains the powder charge would be 47 gr. The thing to consider here is twist or rate of turn of the barrel. Old barrels varied greatly but averaged around 1:48" Barrels made today tend to be at a slower rate than old barrels. The 50 cal barrels today are commonly 1:70". They were made to shoot more powder to increase muzzle velocity. I recommend the range of 50 gr to 90 gr. Some 50s like .495 ball others .490. My custom guns with Green Mountain and Getz barrels perform best with .495 ball and 75 gr. of FFg. In shorter barrels 36' or less try 60 grs of FFFg. I agree with others on the list, more than 90 grs is probably a waste of powder but it DOES increase recoil and internal pressure in the barrel. Hope this helps. Weeping Heart Gunn Shoppe Thom Frazier 36732 Oak Point Rd. New York Mills MN 56567 218-385-2074 mnthom@arvig.net -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of beaverboy@sofast.net Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:58 AM I need some brief loading info for .50 cal rifles. I don't know the twist or make. Just some simple loads for two friends that own .50 cal. Thanks a ton, bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 13 Mar 2004 22:23:03 +0000 50 grains of 2F for targets, 75 grains for hunting, with a .490 ball over .015-.018 pillow ticking lubed with the murphy oil soap mix for targets or 2/3 bear grease and 1/3 beeswax when hunting. Thats out of a Getz 1 in 66". >From: beaverboy@sofast.net >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:57:34 -0700 (MST) > >I need some brief loading info for .50 cal rifles. I don't know the twist >or make. Just some simple loads for two friends that own .50 cal. > Thanks a ton, > bb > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage � 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 13 Mar 2004 17:41:02 -0600 70 gr. of FFFg and a .495 ball patched with .015 material works for me. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 13 Mar 2004 12:09:20 -0600 beaver--- start with 50 gr of fffg and do your thing---56 gr of fffg is usually the ideal load for a 1-48 to a 1 66 barrel--- nuff said hawk--- ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ikon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 14 Mar 2004 08:17:01 -0500 I have two GPR 50's, the standard 1 in 66 long barrel I have found that 90 grains of 2F works very well, although it does punch the shoulder a bit. On the second GPR I have cut the barrel down, it still has a 1 in 66 but I have found that I need to use 70 grains of 3F for a full burn in the barrel. I started both rifles with the trad. 50 grains and worked up. I once worked the long barrel up to 110 grns and found that I'm not much of a cannon shooter. Frank ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:09 PM > beaver--- > start with 50 gr of fffg and do your thing---56 gr of fffg is usually the > ideal load for a 1-48 to a 1 66 barrel--- > > nuff said hawk--- > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 14 Mar 2004 08:36:44 -0700 (MST) Thanks for all the responses to the .50 cal load question. I have forwarded all of them to my two friends. I'm sure they really appreciate them. Heard Robins singing this morning! Spring is in the air here in the Rockies! Soon I'll be hearing Gobblers!!!! bb > I have two GPR 50's, the standard 1 in 66 long barrel I have found that 90 > grains of 2F works very well, although it does punch the shoulder a bit. > > On the second GPR I have cut the barrel down, it still has a 1 in 66 but I > have found that I need to use 70 grains of 3F for a full burn in the > barrel. > > I started both rifles with the trad. 50 grains and worked up. > > I once worked the long barrel up to 110 grns and found that I'm not much > of > a cannon shooter. > > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:09 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads > > >> beaver--- >> start with 50 gr of fffg and do your thing---56 gr of fffg is usually >> the >> ideal load for a 1-48 to a 1 66 barrel--- >> >> nuff said hawk--- >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________ >> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! >> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! >> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 14 Mar 2004 17:42:07 +0000 Already have a group of jakes around my folk's house gobbling up a storm. >From: beaverboy@sofast.net >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads >Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:36:44 -0700 (MST) > >Thanks for all the responses to the .50 cal load question. I have >forwarded all of them to my two friends. I'm sure they really appreciate >them. > Heard Robins singing this morning! Spring is in the air here in the >Rockies! Soon I'll be hearing Gobblers!!!! > bb > > > > > > I have two GPR 50's, the standard 1 in 66 long barrel I have found that >90 > > grains of 2F works very well, although it does punch the shoulder a bit. > > > > On the second GPR I have cut the barrel down, it still has a 1 in 66 but >I > > have found that I need to use 70 grains of 3F for a full burn in the > > barrel. > > > > I started both rifles with the trad. 50 grains and worked up. > > > > I once worked the long barrel up to 110 grns and found that I'm not much > > of > > a cannon shooter. > > > > Frank > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:09 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads > > > > > >> beaver--- > >> start with 50 gr of fffg and do your thing---56 gr of fffg is usually > >> the > >> ideal load for a 1-48 to a 1 66 barrel--- > >> > >> nuff said hawk--- > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________________________________ > >> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > >> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > >> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 14 Mar 2004 13:04:47 EST --part1_63.2953ee9e.2d85f8bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/12/04 4:33:56 PM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > First off, Magpie, please don't come over and kick my butt. There is > already a line here in Montana kicking my butt. > Haaaaa.....! My days of kicking butt are long over....knocks the wind outta me getting out of bed.. And that veiled threat never worked on my kids either. The point I was trying to make though.... was like you, I've spent a fair amount of time under wool blankets, and they are warm. But, if you can keep it dry, there ain't nuthin that compares with a brain tanned buffalo robe.. (unless you can include the six pound bag of goose down I used in Alaska) You missed a good M/L show over in Monroe... a report to follow. Magpie --part1_63.2953ee9e.2d85f8bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/12/04 4:33:56 PM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:

First off, Magpie, pl= ease don't come over and kick my butt. There is
already a line here in Montana kicking my butt.

Haaaaa.....! My days of kicking butt are long over....knocks the wind outta=20= me getting out of bed..<G>
And that veiled threat never worked on my kids either.

The point I was trying to make though.... was like you, I've spent a fair am= ount of time under wool blankets, and they are warm. But, if you can keep it= dry, there ain't nuthin that compares with a brain tanned buffalo robe.. (u= nless you can include the six pound bag of goose down I used in Alaska)

You missed a good M/L show over in Monroe... a report to follow.

Magpie --part1_63.2953ee9e.2d85f8bf_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lance J. Brown" Subject: MtMan-List: Fresh Fish Intro Date: 14 Mar 2004 16:36:17 -0500 List, My name is Lance Brown and I am new to the list. I live in SE Penna., = and =20 I would like to get into buck skinning, and. As I mentioned, I live in = SE Pennsylvania and I am unaware of any groups. If anyone on this list can help me with the following, I would = appreciate it: Groups, voos, etc in PA or nearby Suggested reading to develop a persona Good Sutlers=20 What type of firearm should I buy (and what brands to stay away from) Thanks! Lance=20 Thanks! Lance Lance Brown ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fresh Fish Intro Date: 14 Mar 2004 14:41:23 -0800 Hi Lance, There is a Rdvs. at Fort Loudoun April 22-25, '04. I'llbe going to it while in Penn. (I'm in CA). It is just west of Gettysburg area. I'd suggest taking it slow, especially with the big expenditures. Go to some doin's, check it and the folks out. You'll meet lots of new friends who are anxious to help a new guy. Check out www.GNARendezvous.org Yfab, Randy > [Original Message] > From: Lance J. Brown > To: ; > Date: 3/14/04 1:36:20 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Fresh Fish Intro > > List, > > My name is Lance Brown and I am new to the list. I live in SE Penna., and > I would like to get into buck skinning, and. As I mentioned, I live in SE > Pennsylvania and I am unaware of any groups. > > If anyone on this list can help me with the following, I would appreciate > it: > > Groups, voos, etc in PA or nearby > Suggested reading to develop a persona > Good Sutlers > What type of firearm should I buy (and what brands to stay away from) > > Thanks! > > Lance > > > Thanks! > > Lance > > Lance Brown > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 14 Mar 2004 18:15:45 -0700 (MST) No turkeys near here. I have to drive at least 100 miles to hunt them. I was wondering if they were gobbling yet! Haven't heard any pheasant roosters yet. The geese sure are pairing up though. Another sure sign of spring! Got a decent 17 pounder with my fusee last springa on Easter morning. Started the season off with record 84 degree weather and ended up a week later hiking in snow up to my knees! I just love spring gobbler hunting in the Rockies!!!!!! A bunch of us are coming over to Wild Horse too. bb > Already have a group of jakes around my folk's house gobbling up a storm. > > >>Thanks for all the responses to the .50 cal load question. I have >>forwarded all of them to my two friends. I'm sure they really appreciate >>them. >> Heard Robins singing this morning! Spring is in the air here in the >>Rockies! Soon I'll be hearing Gobblers!!!! >> bb >> >> >> >> >> > I have two GPR 50's, the standard 1 in 66 long barrel I have found >> that >>90 >> > grains of 2F works very well, although it does punch the shoulder a >> bit. >> > >> > On the second GPR I have cut the barrel down, it still has a 1 in 66 >> but >>I >> > have found that I need to use 70 grains of 3F for a full burn in the >> > barrel. >> > >> > I started both rifles with the trad. 50 grains and worked up. >> > >> > I once worked the long barrel up to 110 grns and found that I'm not >> much >> > of >> > a cannon shooter. >> > >> > Frank >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: >> > To: >> > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:09 PM >> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads >> > >> > >> >> beaver--- >> >> start with 50 gr of fffg and do your thing---56 gr of fffg is usually >> >> the >> >> ideal load for a 1-48 to a 1 66 barrel--- >> >> >> >> nuff said hawk--- >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________ >> >> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! >> >> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! >> >> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> >> hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fresh Fish Intro Date: 14 Mar 2004 18:30:59 -0700 (MST) Lance, Don't get in a hurry to buy stuff, half the stuff most of us started with we ended up getting rid of. The Books Of Buckskinning (all of them) are a good source of info as is a subscription to the Muzzleloader Magazine. Carl P.Russell's book "Firearms,Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" is also a great source. Someone mentioned this classic on an earlier post. isbn 0-8263-0465-6 I have just one bit of advice. Less gear is better. Welcome to the list. bb > List, > > My name is Lance Brown and I am new to the list. I live in SE Penna., and > I would like to get into buck skinning, and. As I mentioned, I live in SE > Pennsylvania and I am unaware of any groups. > > If anyone on this list can help me with the following, I would appreciate > it: > > Groups, voos, etc in PA or nearby > Suggested reading to develop a persona > Good Sutlers > What type of firearm should I buy (and what brands to stay away from) > > Thanks! > > Lance > > > Thanks! > > Lance > > Lance Brown > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 14 Mar 2004 10:33:18 -0700 > Hey Magpie, > > You don't happen to have a picture of the buffalo you got that 50' sqare robe > from have ya That's the biggest darn buffalo I ever heard of :) > > I know ya meant 50 square feet...but just had to say it. 50 square feet is a > darn big buff. > Ben > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SWcushing@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:02 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding > > > > In a message dated 3/10/04 5:37:56 PM, trampas4@juno.com writes: > > > > Buffalo robes and blankets thats the way to go. I have never seen sheep skin > robes mention in any period writtings from the mountaineers. > > > I sure agree with you on the buffalo robes and blankets, and doubt the > mountaineers would have used a sheep skin, especially with buffalo robes > readily available. The problem is money... I checked on eBay, and buffalo > hides sell for $500-$1000, while you can get a nice sheep skin for about > $60-$75. > > I've got two buffalo robes (one 50' square!) but unless I've got a toboggan or > horse, I'll carry only my smaller robe, a ground cloth, and sleep on the sheep > skin pad.. > > Magpie > We have tanned skins over 80 sq ft. I cut a back half that measured 9 ft 3 inchs across the width. joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 14 Mar 2004 22:01:40 -0800 Hardtack, Take your one or two blankets, fold them down the length into three folds. Gather the foot end accordion style, throw a hitch around that gathered material about 5" up from the "foot" and cinch it tight. Put the inside fold on the bottom of your bed and the other two folds over you if you sleep on your side. But however, just crawl into that "envelope" you made by tying off that one end and no more feet sleep walking. You'll have two layers all around and a multi layer at your feet. Sure helps me keep my feet warm and inside. YF&B Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:35 PM > Does anyone have experience with paired blankets...ie: tow 3 point end to > end (not ripped). This sounds intersting to me, as you could lay on one, > fold it over on top of you, and not have it easy for feet to stick out. > This is a problem I have had, as I am over 6' tall. I pull the blanket > over my head, and expose feet. I don't realize it until feet are COOOOLD. > Yfab, Randy > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Larry > > To: > > Date: 3/11/04 10:18:00 PM > > Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding > > > > go with wool blankets, you won't be disappointed. > > > > just a bit of advice from my recent experience. Went on our fall trip > with > > a ground cloth, 2 wool blankets and a tarp shelter. made the mistake of > > just grabbing a couple of blanket and did not check them for size. 1 > > blanket under me, and the other was too small to fold over me. spent a > long > > cold night. so first off, check the blankets for size and make sure they > go > > over you. I would recommend you get blankets that are at least 60"x80". > > This is what most 3 1/2 point blankets measure out as. at this size, I > > recommend using a couple of blanket pins so when you roll over, you keep > > covered and tie off the bottom. > > > > for winter camp I used 4 3 1/2 point blankets. laid one out, the next was > > laid half over it and the original then had other half folded, then the > > seconded folded over that making an envelope with 2 layers under you and 2 > > over you, then enclosed that in 2 additional blankets. This I then placed > > in an old canvas mattress bag with ties on the side. I had a sheep skin > and > > buffalo robe under me which were on top of a waterproof tarp (iron oxide > and > > linseed oil). slept warm as long as I kept my head under cover. Be > careful > > of the linseed oil tarp in the winter, it gets brittle. If your partner > > isn't careful, he can run his hawk thru it when he is breaking up the > packed > > snow and ice to prepare when he is going to bed down. > > dogbone > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ole Jensen Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Stitching scotsman Date: 15 Mar 2004 08:13:05 -0700 Hello the Camp, What happened to the stitching Scotsman, his web site has disapered. Ole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding Date: 15 Mar 2004 11:29:42 -0800 Gentlemen: I throw this out as ongoing discussion - obviously, the bottom line on bedrolls is whatever works for the individual. I was trained on the "three folds" method as described by Capt. L below, and I found that the "flap" on each side tended to come apart until I woke up laying on top of a jumbled mess of blankets, freezing cold. My sponsor didn't convey the trick of tying the foot, but I am tall and even with 5-point blankets, they barely cover my feet as it is, and I can't afford to lose the length. Also, my instructor came from the experience of a long cross-country ride, where he needed to be able to jump up at a moment's notice to quiet the horses etc. Aside from the need to sleep in some kind of moccasins, I found that the "sleeping bag" type bedrolls get all tangled and hard to get in and out of. So I gravitated to the "single fold" method, where my windbreaker and blankets are folded roughly in half, with the larger half on top of me (also works great for a buffalo robe if available). I wake up anyway during the night to turn over, etc, and sometimes I have to re-arrange the top blankets, but it's real easy even when sleepy, and jumping up in an emergency is quick and easy. Capt L sleeps in colder conditions so he may be used to more elaborate precautions. I know people who pin things together, have stitched canvas bags, and other expedients, but the simple method works for me. You can wear blanket leggings, extra socks etc to keep the extremities warm in cold weather, but the old journals report that men paired up when it got below freezing. Best regards Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 10:02 PM Hardtack, Take your one or two blankets, fold them down the length into three folds. Gather the foot end accordion style, throw a hitch around that gathered material about 5" up from the "foot" and cinch it tight. Put the inside fold on the bottom of your bed and the other two folds over you if you sleep on your side. But however, just crawl into that "envelope" you made by tying off that one end and no more feet sleep walking. You'll have two layers all around and a multi layer at your feet. Sure helps me keep my feet warm and inside. YF&B Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:35 PM > Does anyone have experience with paired blankets...ie: tow 3 point end to > end (not ripped). This sounds intersting to me, as you could lay on one, > fold it over on top of you, and not have it easy for feet to stick out. > This is a problem I have had, as I am over 6' tall. I pull the blanket > over my head, and expose feet. I don't realize it until feet are COOOOLD. > Yfab, Randy > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Larry > > To: > > Date: 3/11/04 10:18:00 PM > > Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: Bedding > > > > go with wool blankets, you won't be disappointed. > > > > just a bit of advice from my recent experience. Went on our fall trip > with > > a ground cloth, 2 wool blankets and a tarp shelter. made the mistake of > > just grabbing a couple of blanket and did not check them for size. 1 > > blanket under me, and the other was too small to fold over me. spent a > long > > cold night. so first off, check the blankets for size and make sure they > go > > over you. I would recommend you get blankets that are at least 60"x80". > > This is what most 3 1/2 point blankets measure out as. at this size, I > > recommend using a couple of blanket pins so when you roll over, you keep > > covered and tie off the bottom. > > > > for winter camp I used 4 3 1/2 point blankets. laid one out, the next was > > laid half over it and the original then had other half folded, then the > > seconded folded over that making an envelope with 2 layers under you and 2 > > over you, then enclosed that in 2 additional blankets. This I then placed > > in an old canvas mattress bag with ties on the side. I had a sheep skin > and > > buffalo robe under me which were on top of a waterproof tarp (iron oxide > and > > linseed oil). slept warm as long as I kept my head under cover. Be > careful > > of the linseed oil tarp in the winter, it gets brittle. If your partner > > isn't careful, he can run his hawk thru it when he is breaking up the > packed > > snow and ice to prepare when he is going to bed down. > > dogbone > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Stitching scotsman Date: 15 Mar 2004 15:41:42 -0600 Ole, I'm still here and so is the website. I just checked. Try clicking on www.stitchinscotsman.com Nothings changed except my age! I do have a different phone number, though, 641- 895-6950. Thanks fer caring! G. John The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Handsewn Elkhide garments and moccasins Manu Forti www.stitchinscotsman.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 9:13 AM > > Hello the Camp, > What happened to the stitching Scotsman, his web site has disapered. > Ole > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: white buffalo Date: 15 Mar 2004 19:43:12 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40AC5.C09EBC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For general information.....I just received the Spring sale flyer for = the Barker Exotic Animal Auction in the Lockridge Iowa on March 27th. = Among the large list of elk, deer, wild hogs and African animals is a = complete dispersal of a large bison herd including a 6 year old semen = tested white buffalo and "two BIG tanned buffalo hides" ( their words ). = Anyone that needs location information or telephone numbers can contact = me off list. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40AC5.C09EBC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For general information.....I = just=20 received the Spring sale flyer for the Barker Exotic Animal Auction in = the=20 Lockridge Iowa on March 27th. Among the large list of elk, deer, wild = hogs and=20 African animals is a complete dispersal of a large bison herd including = a 6 year=20 old semen tested white buffalo and "two BIG tanned buffalo hides" ( = their words=20 ). Anyone that needs location information or telephone numbers can = contact me=20 off list.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40AC5.C09EBC80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: white buffalo Date: 15 Mar 2004 18:02:09 -0800 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "semen tested" ? I bet you have to be careful doing that to a 6 year old buffalo? Randy ----- Original Message ----- complete dispersal of a large bison herd including a 6 year old semen tested white buffalo and "two BIG tanned buffalo hides" ( their words ). ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
"semen tested" ?   I bet you have to be careful doing that to a 6 year old buffalo? Randy

----- Original Message -----

From: John McKee

complete dispersal of a large bison herd including a 6 year old semen tested white buffalo and "two BIG tanned buffalo hides" ( their words ).
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stuart Family" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 15 Mar 2004 22:38:14 -0700 What would you all suggest for a .50 cal pistol? ED > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > beaverboy@sofast.net > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 8:37 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads > > > Thanks for all the responses to the .50 cal load question. I have > forwarded all of them to my two friends. I'm sure they really appreciate > them. > Heard Robins singing this morning! Spring is in the air here in the > Rockies! Soon I'll be hearing Gobblers!!!! > bb > > > > > > I have two GPR 50's, the standard 1 in 66 long barrel I have > found that 90 > > grains of 2F works very well, although it does punch the shoulder a bit. > > > > On the second GPR I have cut the barrel down, it still has a 1 > in 66 but I > > have found that I need to use 70 grains of 3F for a full burn in the > > barrel. > > > > I started both rifles with the trad. 50 grains and worked up. > > > > I once worked the long barrel up to 110 grns and found that I'm not much > > of > > a cannon shooter. > > > > Frank > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:09 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads > > > > > >> beaver--- > >> start with 50 gr of fffg and do your thing---56 gr of fffg is usually > >> the > >> ideal load for a 1-48 to a 1 66 barrel--- > >> > >> nuff said hawk--- > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________________________________ > >> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > >> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > >> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Maryln Adams" Subject: MtMan-List: Buff Hide Date: 16 Mar 2004 07:30:26 -0500
Hi: Havn't been keeping up with the list for a long time but this discussion caught my eye. We have a buff hide and believe me it is heavy to sleep under. Also, it does not "drape" so there are lots of air gaps. Wool blankets with the majority under you are the was to go. No doubt.

Maryln Adams

Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Moose Date: 16 Mar 2004 07:54:41 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C40B2B.F00E3A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A person in my writers group is writing a non-fiction book about = life in the U.S. pre-Revolution, about 1650-1750. He read a bit of it describing a scene in Ohio where the characters = went moose hunting. Now I have heard that buff and elk were known east of the = Mississippi and there are moose in the upper north-east reaches of = Maine. But moose in Ohio? Can anyone verify of disprove his claim about moose being there at = that time? Frank ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C40B2B.F00E3A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    A person in my writers group is writing a = non-fiction=20 book about life in the U.S. pre-Revolution, about 1650-1750.

    He read a bit of it describing a scene in=20 Ohio where the characters went moose hunting.

    Now I have heard that buff and elk were known = east of=20 the Mississippi and there are moose in the upper north-east reaches of = Maine.=20 But moose in Ohio?

    Can anyone verify of disprove his claim about = moose=20 being there at that time?

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C40B2B.F00E3A20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Moose Date: 16 Mar 2004 15:12:13 +0000 Its probably part of their original range. There are Moose in Northern and western NY and occasionally in parts of PA. I helped in a Moose relaease project there years ago to restore them to the area. SMB >From: "Frank Fusco" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: "list AMM" >Subject: MtMan-List: Moose >Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:54:41 -0600 > > A person in my writers group is writing a non-fiction book about life >in the U.S. pre-Revolution, about 1650-1750. > He read a bit of it describing a scene in Ohio where the characters >went moose hunting. > Now I have heard that buff and elk were known east of the Mississippi >and there are moose in the upper north-east reaches of Maine. But moose in >Ohio? > Can anyone verify of disprove his claim about moose being there at >that time? >Frank _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: .50 cal loads Date: 16 Mar 2004 10:10:51 -0500 On Tuesday 16 March 2004 12:38 am, Stuart Family wrote: > What would you all suggest for a .50 cal pistol? 30 gr. of Swiss fffg is a MAX. load, for sure. If you use the Swiss fffg, you'll have VERY clean burning, and EXCELLENT velocities. Fred -- "...Linux, MS-DOS, and Windows XP (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose Date: 16 Mar 2004 10:13:23 -0500 On Tuesday 16 March 2004 10:12 am, Sean Boushie wrote: > Its probably part of their original range. There are Moose in Northern and > western NY and occasionally in parts of PA. I helped in a Moose relaease > project there years ago to restore them to the area. And, it will be YEARS before there's a hunt here for them. Fred -- "...Linux, MS-DOS, and Windows XP (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Flintlock Date: 16 Mar 2004 10:25:46 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I reciently found a early civil war issue, 72 mm smooth bore. It's a four band. All springs are stronge. Any idea what it might be worth? Your help could sure be used. TraprJoe Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I reciently found a early civil war issue, 72 mm smooth bore. It's a fo= ur band. All springs are stronge. Any idea what it might be worth? You= r help could sure be used.

             &n= bsp;             &n= bsp;             &n= bsp;

              &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;         TraprJoe
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Monte Holder" Subject: MtMan-List:Kansas City Star Date: 16 Mar 2004 11:23:22 -0600 Had a short article about fur trade court cases online at the following address. http://www.stlcourtrecords.wustl.edu I haven't had a chance to look much but thought some of you might be interested. Monte Holder Saline County MO ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fresh Fish Intro Date: 18 Mar 2004 11:49:18 -0600 > I'd suggest taking it slow, especially with the big expenditures. >Go to some doin's, check it and the folks out. Yep, take it slow. Talk to LOTS of people to learn what is right and what isn't, before you spend any money. > You'll meet lots of new >friends who are anxious to help a new guy. Yep, and some of those new friends will try to sell you everything you need, with a promise that everything they sell is 100% authentic. Not to mention that their trade goods are things that you gotta have to be a mountain man. Run away from anyone offering to outfit you...for a price, usually a high price, until you learn what you DO need. J.D. >Check out >www.GNARendezvous.org Yfab, Randy > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Lance J. Brown > > To: ; > > Date: 3/14/04 1:36:20 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Fresh Fish Intro > > > > List, > > > > My name is Lance Brown and I am new to the list. I live in SE Penna., >and > > I would like to get into buck skinning, and. As I mentioned, I live in SE > > Pennsylvania and I am unaware of any groups. > > > > If anyone on this list can help me with the following, I would appreciate > > it: > > > > Groups, voos, etc in PA or nearby > > Suggested reading to develop a persona > > Good Sutlers > > What type of firearm should I buy (and what brands to stay away from) > > > > Thanks! > > > > Lance > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Lance > > > > Lance Brown > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: CW flintlock Date: 18 Mar 2004 13:10:33 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C40CEA.6541ACE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trapper Joe A CW flintlock is a bit unusual. I once had a CW rifled musket in .72 cal. It was Austrian made and = part of an experimental contract, only 2000 were made. I paid $125.00 for it about 1970 and traded it for a pistol worth = about $200.00 fifteen years later. But some of that CW stuff is going very dearly today. Check with a = CW reenactor and/or the Fladyermans guide. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C40CEA.6541ACE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Trapper Joe

    A CW flintlock is a bit unusual.

    I once had a CW rifled musket in .72 cal. It was = Austrian made and part of an experimental contract, only 2000 were = made.

    I paid $125.00 for it about 1970 and traded it = for a=20 pistol worth about $200.00 fifteen years later.

    But some of that CW stuff is going very dearly = today.=20 Check with a CW reenactor and/or the Fladyermans guide.

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C40CEA.6541ACE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: A.M.M. Auction Date: 21 Mar 2004 11:58:01 -0800 Brothers & Friends, Buck Conner is readying the A.M.M. auction , which will run on e-bay March 27- April 27. If you want to preview the nearly 50 quality items that will be up for auction , you may see them at http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html -click on e-bay to see auction items , besides trade gun that will be auctioned on his personal site. Check it out, and on March 27 - let the bidding begin. Yfab , Randy Randal Bublitz rjbublitz@earthlink.net "Life is short, paddle hard..." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Boyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A.M.M. Auction Date: 21 Mar 2004 15:22:39 -0800 (PST) --0-1893087408-1079911359=:47832 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii WOW Randy, You boys have really been busy beating the bushes, some really nice items on this auction. Like the beaded knife sheath, the Chief's Trade gun and that W&S knife is sweet. Thanks for the reminder, now I just have to figure how to get the credit card from the wife. Thanks again. Nate Randal Bublitz wrote: Brothers & Friends, Buck Conner is readying the A.M.M. auction , which will run on e-bay March 27- April 27. If you want to preview the nearly 50 quality items that will be up for auction , you may see them at http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html -click on e-bay to see auction items , besides trade gun that will be auctioned on his personal site. Check it out, and on March 27 - let the bidding begin. Yfab , Randy Randal Bublitz rjbublitz@earthlink.net "Life is short, paddle hard..." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-1893087408-1079911359=:47832 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
WOW Randy,

You boys have really been busy beating the bushes, some really nice items on this auction. Like the beaded knife sheath, the Chief's Trade gun and that W&S knife is sweet. Thanks for the reminder, now I just have to figure how to get the credit card from the wife.

Thanks again.

Nate

Randal Bublitz <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> wrote:

Brothers & Friends,
Buck Conner is readying the A.M.M. auction , which will run on e-bay
March 27- April 27. If you want to preview the nearly 50 quality items
that will be up for auction , you may see them at
http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html -click on e-bay to see auction
items , besides trade gun that will be auctioned on his personal site.
Check it out, and on March 27 - let the bidding begin. Yfab , Randy

Randal Bublitz
rjbublitz@earthlink.net
"Life is short, paddle hard..."

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-1893087408-1079911359=:47832-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stuart Family" Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Wear Date: 22 Mar 2004 21:04:15 -0700 Folks, I was wondering if any of you have any good sources of Indian items that would go along with mountain man clothing. I have done some research into moccasins but I was wondering about necklaces and such. I am looking for information regarding those tribes that the mountain of about 1830-1845 would have had the most contact with. Internet resources would be the most helpful but I will take anything. Thanks for your help in the past. Ed ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Indian Wear Date: 22 Mar 2004 20:14:52 -0800 Hi Ed, Forgive the shameless plug, but..... there are a few items on the upcoming AMM auction that are Indian related/Mtn Man related. There is a beaded knife sheath, a beaded choker, an elk foot bag with bead and brain tan trim, etc.... Randy . Go to the AMM Auction site at: http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/ like mentioned, then go to near the bottom of that page to where you see the devil with the fork. Below that is 2004 AUCTION eBay "click there" and you'll see all the plunder. check it out. > [Original Message] > From: Stuart Family > To: Mountain Man Mailing List > Date: 3/22/04 7:56:40 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Wear > > Folks, > > I was wondering if any of you have any good sources of Indian items that > would go along with mountain man clothing. I have done some research into > moccasins but I was wondering about necklaces and such. I am looking for > information regarding those tribes that the mountain of about 1830-1845 > would have had the most contact with. Internet resources would be the most > helpful but I will take anything. Thanks for your help in the past. > > Ed > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose Date: 22 Mar 2004 21:35:18 -0700 At 07:54 AM 3/16/04 -0600, you wrote:

=A0=A0=A0 A person in my writers group is= writing a non-fiction book about life in the U.S. pre-Revolution, about 1650-1750.
=A0=A0=A0 He read a bit of it describing a scene in Ohio=A0where the charact= ers went moose hunting.
=A0=A0=A0 Now I have heard that buff and elk were known east of the Mississi= ppi and there are moose in the upper north-east reaches of Maine. But moose in Ohio?
=A0=A0=A0 Can anyone verify of disprove his claim about moose being there at that time?
Frank

I looked this up in the book "Ecology and Management of the North American Moose" (Wildlife Management Institute). They have a map indicating the approximate range of moose at the time of European contact (1500-1650). It indicates that the moose's range extended to the northeastern corner of Ohio.
-Dean
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Stitching scotsman Date: 23 Mar 2004 17:56:09 -0500 Dunno... He was going to make me a pair of leather britches... Ad > Hello the Camp, > What happened to the stitching Scotsman, his web site has disapered. > Ole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Stitching scotsman Date: 23 Mar 2004 18:14:48 -0600 I say again......still above ground........still sewing.....site still there. John The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Handsewn Elkhide garments and moccasins Manu Forti www.stitchinscotsman.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:56 PM > Dunno... He was going to make me a pair of leather britches... > > Ad > > > Hello the Camp, > > What happened to the stitching Scotsman, his web site has disapered. > > Ole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Stitching scotsman Date: 23 Mar 2004 22:58:24 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/23/2004 4:20:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, stitchin@sirisonline.com writes: I say again......still above ground........still sewing.....site still there. John Yep, John, It's still there and as you mentioned a couple of weeks ago, has been all the time. Many folks are having trouble with websites and email due to filtering programs that won't let them in. Your site looks good....... Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 3/23/2004 4:20:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, stitchin= @sirisonline.com writes:

I say again......still above ground........sti= ll sewing.....site still
there.   John

Yep, John, It's st= ill there and as you mentioned a couple of weeks ago, has been all the=20= time. Many folks are having trouble with websites and email due to fil= tering programs that won't let them in. Your site looks good....... Barney
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: MtMan-List: United Nations Power Grab -- STOP IT NOW Date: 24 Mar 2004 12:25:29 -0500 They MUST be stopped. According to the American Policy Center (AmericanPolicy.org), "any day now this nation could find itself part of an international treaty that abolishes freedom on seven-tenths of the world's surface." That's because the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea, a treaty that has remained dead in the water since Bill Clinton's presidency, has re-emerged as a threat to this nation's sovereignty, thanks in large part to Senate Foreign Relations Chair Richard Lugar (R-IN) and his fellow committee members. In February, this committee voted unanimously to bring the treaty to the full Senate for consideration. Thankfully, Sen. Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN), who is responsible for scheduling legislation for votes, hasn't moved on this request... YET. With no public outcry in opposition, though, the pressures of support from members of the Administration, U.S. Navy officials, environmentalists and oil industry executives could result in a vote ANY DAY for Senate ratification. "Once two-thirds of senators approve," said Tom DeWeese, president of the APC, "America will have yet another U.N. shackle placed about her leg." This "Law of the Sea Treaty" (LOST) gives the United Nations *control of the sea*. It compromises U.S. national security, siphons U.S. corporate and taxpayer dollars for global interests in the form of new levies, stifles U.S. Development, and gives away hard-earned U.S. technology to even non-friendly nations. This treaty represents the "largest transfer of sovereignty to a UN body ever," says Brandon Wales, a senior associate with the Center for Security Policy. "This is unprecedented." If this treaty is ratified, the United States will no longer hold the right to board and search all suspect vessels -- a prohibition that will greatly endanger our nation's security and impede our progress with the war against terrorism. The United States will no longer hold jurisdiction to freely explore the ocean's beds and waters for oil and precious magnesium without first obtaining permission and receiving quota limitations from the International Sea Bed Authority, a U.N. body. The United States will be required to pay a tax on all ocean discoveries to this same UN body, and the U.S. will also have to share its mining and exploration technology with the likes of China and North Korea -- nations that in turn can use this technology against our own military defenses! ARE THESE PEOPLE CRAZY??? This treaty MUST be halted before the United Nations is allowed to stretch its powers over 70% of the Earth's surface and control of the seas... and we've set up just the way to do, where YOU can have a POWERFUL IMPACT on the Senate. TAKE ACTION NOW: We've set up our site so that you can send Blast Faxes to ALL 100 U.S. SENATORS -- a fax to every single one of them! -- demanding that they REJECT the "Law of the Sea Treaty," which would practically eliminate U.S. sovereignty in this area. It's up to the FULL Senate now to put this terrible treaty to rest, once and for all. The cost is ONLY $21 -- about what it would cost you in time & long distance fees to do it yourself. Go to the site below to take action NOW: http://www.newsmax.com/jump/email_ext/sicm-032404.htm -- "..SuSE Linux, MS-DOS, and Windows XP, (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: United Nations Power Grab -- STOP IT NOW---Suggestion of Inappropriate Posting Date: 24 Mar 2004 12:07:31 -0600 Fred and Members of this List, I must respectfully suggest that this material is not appropriate on this list. Rather than debate the merits or lack thereof, I would note that it borders on being spam, abet with a political slant. Current politics, I suggest, have no relevence to this list and such postings are contrary to the purpose this list exists. That being said, I would hope that such discussion can be dealt with in other venues and that we can continue to devote our time and attention, on this list, to matters relevant to the historical period to which it is devoted. Best regards, Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:25 AM > They MUST be stopped. > > According to the American Policy Center > (AmericanPolicy.org), "any day now this nation could find > itself part of an international treaty that abolishes > freedom on seven-tenths of the world's surface." That's > because the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea, a > treaty that has remained dead in the water since Bill > Clinton's presidency, has re-emerged as a threat to this > nation's sovereignty, thanks in large part to Senate > Foreign Relations Chair Richard Lugar (R-IN) and his > fellow committee members. In February, this committee > voted unanimously to bring the treaty to the full Senate > for consideration. Thankfully, Sen. Majority Leader Bill > Frist (R-TN), who is responsible for scheduling > legislation for votes, hasn't moved on this request... > YET. > > With no public outcry in opposition, though, the pressures > of support from members of the Administration, U.S. Navy > officials, environmentalists and oil industry executives > could result in a vote ANY DAY for Senate ratification. > "Once two-thirds of senators approve," said Tom DeWeese, > president of the APC, "America will have yet another U.N. > shackle placed about her leg." > > This "Law of the Sea Treaty" (LOST) gives the United > Nations *control of the sea*. It compromises U.S. national > security, siphons U.S. corporate and taxpayer dollars for > global interests in the form of new levies, stifles U.S. > Development, and gives away hard-earned U.S. technology to > even non-friendly nations. > > This treaty represents the "largest transfer of > sovereignty to a UN body ever," says Brandon Wales, a > senior associate with the Center for Security Policy. > "This is unprecedented." > > If this treaty is ratified, the United States will no > longer hold the right to board and search all suspect > vessels -- a prohibition that will greatly endanger our > nation's security and impede our progress with the war > against terrorism. The United States will no longer hold > jurisdiction to freely explore the ocean's beds and waters > for oil and precious magnesium without first obtaining > permission and receiving quota limitations from the > International Sea Bed Authority, a U.N. body. The United > States will be required to pay a tax on all ocean > discoveries to this same UN body, and the U.S. will also > have to share its mining and exploration technology with > the likes of China and North Korea -- nations that in turn > can use this technology against our own military defenses! > > ARE THESE PEOPLE CRAZY??? > > This treaty MUST be halted before the United Nations is > allowed to stretch its powers over 70% of the Earth's > surface and control of the seas... and we've set up just > the way to do, where YOU can have a POWERFUL IMPACT on the > Senate. > > TAKE ACTION NOW: We've set up our site so that you can > send Blast Faxes to ALL 100 U.S. SENATORS -- a fax to > every single one of them! -- demanding that they REJECT > the "Law of the Sea Treaty," which would practically > eliminate U.S. sovereignty in this area. It's up to the > FULL Senate now to put this terrible treaty to rest, once > and for all. The cost is ONLY $21 -- about what it would > cost you in time & long distance fees to do it yourself. > Go to the site below to take action NOW: > > http://www.newsmax.com/jump/email_ext/sicm-032404.htm > > -- > "..SuSE Linux, MS-DOS, and Windows XP, (also known as the Good, the Bad, and > the Ugly)." > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: United Nations Power Grab -- STOP IT NOW---Suggestion of Inap... Date: 24 Mar 2004 16:36:03 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/2004 10:13:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, pwjones@myexcel.com writes: That being said, I would hope that such discussion can be dealt with in other venues and that we can continue to devote our time and attention, on this list, to matters relevant to the historical period to which it is devoted. Amen Pablo. I was trying to find some Mtn Man content in that diatribe myself, then realized it was just someone who would misuse any venue to further their own purpose. When this has happened in the past, I have contacted Dean, who dealt with the subscriber directly, but I think your posting has well served the purpose . Thanks, Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 3/24/2004 10:13:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, pwjones= @myexcel.com writes:

That being said, I would hope that such discus= sion can be dealt with in
other venues and that we can continue to devote= our time and attention, on
this list, to matters relevant to the histori= cal period to which it is
devoted.

Amen Pablo. I was=20= trying to find some Mtn Man content in that diatribe myself, then realized i= t was just someone who would misuse any venue to further their own purp= ose.

&n= bsp;

When this has happ= ened in the past, I have contacted Dean, who dealt with the subscr= iber directly, but I think your posting has well served the purpos= e .

&n= bsp;

Thanks, Barney
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: United Nations Power Grab -- STOP IT NOW---Suggestion of Inappropriate Posting Date: 24 Mar 2004 18:00:59 -0500 On Wednesday 24 March 2004 1:07 pm, Paul Jones wrote: > Fred and Members of this List, > > I must respectfully suggest that this material is not appropriate on this > list. Rather than debate the merits or lack thereof, I would note that it > borders on being spam, abet with a political slant. Current politics, I > suggest, have no relevence to this list and such postings are contrary to > the purpose this list exists. > > That being said, I would hope that such discussion can be dealt with in > other venues and that we can continue to devote our time and attention, on > this list, to matters relevant to the historical period to which it is > devoted. You are correct! Sorry - I posted it here in error. Fred -- "..SuSE Linux, MS-DOS, and Windows XP, (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David A. Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 13:32:40 -0700 I am wondering what a good web site or contact information is for getting the "The Long Hunter Series" videos... ones that mark Baker did a while back? The old web site was: http://americanpioneer.premiernet.net And this doesn't work... Thanks Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Tannehil Subject: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 14:38:33 -0600 --0__=09BBE4F1DFE2E2558f9e8a93df938690918c09BBE4F1DFE2E255 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Return Receipt Your MtMan-List: Vidoes document : was Bob Tannehil/St Louis/IBM received by: at: 03/25/2004 14:38:33 CST --0__=09BBE4F1DFE2E2558f9e8a93df938690918c09BBE4F1DFE2E255 Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline
Return Receipt

Your document:
MtMan-List: Vidoes

was received by:
Bob Tannehil/St Louis/IBM

at:
03/25/2004 14:38:33 CST

--0__=09BBE4F1DFE2E2558f9e8a93df938690918c09BBE4F1DFE2E255-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 17:12:29 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok Bob, turn that thing off....yer making all us St. louis boys look bad. ;-) Longshot Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok Bob, turn that thing off.= ...yer making all us St. louis boys look bad. ;-)=20

Longshot
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MunevarL@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 17:26:20 -0500 In a message dated 3/25/2004 3:32:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, dammiller@comcast.net writes: > > > I am wondering what a good web site or contact information is for getting > the "The Long Hunter Series" videos... ones that mark Baker did a while > back? > > The old web site was: http://americanpioneer.premiernet.net > > And this doesn't work... > > Thanks > > Dave > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Dave, I do not own the Longhunter series but I did see them advertised on the following link: http://www.northernrifleman.com/LonghunterVideos.htm Let me know if this works for you and I would love to hear a review from you on what you think of them. Lou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 15:50:42 -0700 (MST) Longshot, You know, I was born and raised in St. Louis! I hope I ain't making you boys look bad! I grew up trapping possums and coon on the banks of the Mississippi River and eating White Castles! I met Mark Baker a couple of summers ago at the Polebridge Rendezvous up here in Montana and found him to be a very nice, cordial professional and a very nice guy! I just happen to be standing there when he and Rex Allen Norman met for the first time! Rex is a very nice guy too. He autographed my Book of Buckskinning VIII and even his signature is a work of art! Isn't life grand! Beaverboy > Ok Bob, turn that thing off....yer making all us St. louis boys look bad. > ;-) > > > Longshot > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kim-Ken Carpenter" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 15:05:56 -0800 Go to: http://www.northernrifleman.com/LonghunterVideos.htm > [Original Message] > From: David A. Miller > To: > Date: 3/25/2004 12:32:03 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Vidoes > > I am wondering what a good web site or contact information is for getting > the "The Long Hunter Series" videos... ones that mark Baker did a while > back? > > The old web site was: http://americanpioneer.premiernet.net > > And this doesn't work... > > Thanks > > Dave > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David A. Miller" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 20:35:58 -0700 Thanks everybody.... that was what I was looking for! -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim-Ken Carpenter Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:06 PM Go to: http://www.northernrifleman.com/LonghunterVideos.htm > [Original Message] > From: David A. Miller > To: > Date: 3/25/2004 12:32:03 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Vidoes > > I am wondering what a good web site or contact information is for getting > the "The Long Hunter Series" videos... ones that mark Baker did a while > back? > > The old web site was: http://americanpioneer.premiernet.net > > And this doesn't work... > > Thanks > > Dave > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 23:38:06 -0500 Hey Dave... take off the "Return Receipt Requested" for the list please... :) Regards, Ad Miller ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:35 PM > Thanks everybody.... that was what I was looking for! > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim-Ken Carpenter > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:06 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Vidoes > > Go to: > > http://www.northernrifleman.com/LonghunterVideos.htm > > > > [Original Message] > > From: David A. Miller > > To: > > Date: 3/25/2004 12:32:03 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Vidoes > > > > I am wondering what a good web site or contact information is for getting > > the "The Long Hunter Series" videos... ones that mark Baker did a while > > back? > > > > The old web site was: http://americanpioneer.premiernet.net > > > > And this doesn't work... > > > > Thanks > > > > Dave > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Tannehil Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 26 Mar 2004 07:20:08 -0600 --0__=09BBE4F0DFDAC7DF8f9e8a93df938690918c09BBE4F0DFDAC7DF Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Return Receipt Your RE: MtMan-List: Vidoes document : was Bob Tannehil/St Louis/IBM received by: at: 03/26/2004 07:20:08 CST --0__=09BBE4F0DFDAC7DF8f9e8a93df938690918c09BBE4F0DFDAC7DF Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline
Return Receipt

Your document:
RE: MtMan-List: Vidoes

was received by:
Bob Tannehil/St Louis/IBM

at:
03/26/2004 07:20:08 CST

--0__=09BBE4F0DFDAC7DF8f9e8a93df938690918c09BBE4F0DFDAC7DF-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Knapp Subject: MtMan-List: M. Baker videos Date: 26 Mar 2004 07:53:48 -0700 I have Mark Baker's set of tapes. The boys and I refer to them quite a bit while working on different projects. I especially like the winter mocs (shoe pacs) he shows how to make. Sometimes its nice to see a project come together rather than just read instructions. Regards, Dennis Knapp aka Sticher southern Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: M. Baker videos and book Date: 26 Mar 2004 09:55:21 -0500 Met Mark Baker at the MidWestern in 2002. Right nice fellow. Bought his book and it is a gold mine of info and history. Regards, Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 25 Mar 2004 22:45:24 -0600 beaverboy if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and i'll give him dan's e-mail address-- hawk ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Boyer Subject: MtMan-List: American Mountain Men's 2004 Auction Date: 26 Mar 2004 10:39:18 -0800 (PST) --0-731710542-1080326358=:9634 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ladies & Gentlemen, This morning I talked to Buck Conner of the AMM, he had just finished the last 'touches', as he called it on loading the American Mountain Men's 2004 Auction into Ebay. He asked if I would send this information out to this list and several other message boards. The 'Chief's Trade Gun will be at: http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html from this site you can view some of the articles that will be on Ebay by moving down the page where the devil is and 'clicking on' 2004 Aucion or just go to: http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/eBay/auctions.html He said this site will go away once the second auction starts on April 17th. At this temporary web site you can go to the 'Ebay' page by 'clicking on' their logo or just go to: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItemsLinkButtons&userid=nwgun This sounds like a lot but once Ebay starts at 7AM PST on this Saturday, just bookmark the 'nwgun' Ebay and the trade gun sites. *The Chief's Trade Gun will run from March 27th - April 27th. *First Auction of (32) AMM items and (4) additional items will begin on this Saturday - March 27th - April 6th. *Second Auction of (30) AMM plus items will begin on April 17th - April 26th. All the auctions will open on the starting dates shown at 7AM PST according to Buck. Thank you for your interest. Nate Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-731710542-1080326358=:9634 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Ladies & Gentlemen,

This morning I talked to Buck Conner of the AMM, he had just finished the last 'touches', as he called it on loading the American Mountain Men's 2004 Auction into Ebay. He asked if I would send this information out to this list and several other message boards.

The 'Chief's Trade Gun will be at: http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/index.html

from this site you can view some of the articles that will be on Ebay by moving down the page where the devil is and 'clicking on' 2004 Aucion or just go to: http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/eBay/auctions.html He said this site will go away once the second auction starts on April 17th.

At this temporary web site you can go to the 'Ebay' page by 'clicking on' their logo or just go to: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItemsLinkButtons&userid=nwgun

This sounds like a lot but once Ebay starts at 7AM PST on this Saturday, just bookmark the 'nwgun' Ebay and the trade gun sites.

*The Chief's Trade Gun will run from March 27th - April 27th.

*First Auction of (32) AMM items and (4) additional items will begin on this Saturday - March 27th - April 6th.

*Second Auction of (30) AMM plus items will begin on April 17th - April 26th.

All the auctions will open on the starting dates shown at 7AM PST according to Buck.

Thank you for your interest.

Nate

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-731710542-1080326358=:9634-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 26 Mar 2004 21:03:59 -0700 (MST) I just met him that one time. I could tell he gets a lot of people asking him questions and bugging him (like me) yet he was very nice and gracious. The sign of a true pro and a nice person. He deserves all the success he has worked for. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. bb > beaverboy > if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson > was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and > i'll give him dan's e-mail address-- > > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Display Notification: RE: MtMan-List: Vidoes Date: 27 Mar 2004 11:47:26 -0700 This is a confirmation that the message has been displayed to the user. = Note: This is NOT a guarantee that the message has been read or understood.= ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Boyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Writers & their videos Date: 27 Mar 2004 13:55:52 -0800 (PST) --0-1697500639-1080424552=:85920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is very open minded. I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think these gentlemen haven't changed. True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are bothered. Nate > beaverboy > if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson > was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and > i'll give him dan's e-mail address-- > > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html usin Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-1697500639-1080424552=:85920 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is very open minded.

I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think these gentlemen haven't changed.

True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are bothered.

Nate

> beaverboy
> if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson
> was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and
> i'll give him dan's e-mail address--
>
> hawk
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
usin
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-1697500639-1080424552=:85920-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Writers & their videos Date: 27 Mar 2004 18:25:24 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C41428.DEF593E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My involvement with Mark, Curry, and Wes had nothing to do with Clark & = Sons or any other commercial enterprise. Mark, who I have known for = some years, is a true gentleman, a great researcher, genuinely humble, = and a fine fellow all around. Wes is likewise a good fellow and a fine = craftsman. Curry, and this is merely a biased opinion, is not in the = same league, but then as noted that is a personal view. Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nathan Boyer=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 3:55 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Writers & their videos My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, = John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of = their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen = and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is = Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, = Rex is very open minded. I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he = was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think = these gentlemen haven't changed. True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That = must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are = bothered. Nate > beaverboy > if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan = anderson > was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me = offline and > i'll give him dan's e-mail address-- > > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html usin ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C41428.DEF593E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My involvement with Mark, Curry, and Wes had = nothing=20 to do with Clark & Sons or any other commercial enterprise. = Mark, who=20 I have known for some years, is a true gentleman, a great = researcher,=20 genuinely humble, and a fine fellow all around. Wes is likewise a = good=20 fellow and a fine craftsman. Curry, and this is merely a biased = opinion,=20 is not in the same league, but then as noted that is a personal=20 view.

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nathan=20 Boyer

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 = 3:55=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Writers &=20 their videos

My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark = Baker,=20 John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of = their=20 adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and = has=20 alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex = Norman,=20 they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is = very open=20 minded.

I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when = he was=20 running the same company a few years later or not, but would think = these=20 gentlemen haven't changed.

True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That = must be=20 hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are = bothered.

Nate

> beaverboy
> if you see mark baker tell = him his=20 ears should be burning---dan anderson
> was talking about = him--if he=20 has e-mail have him contact me offline and
> i'll give him = dan's=20 e-mail address--
>
> hawk
>
>=20 = ________________________________________________________________
> = The=20 best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> = Surf the=20 Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit = www.juno.com=20 to sign up today!
>
> ----------------------
> = hist_text=20 list info:=20 = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

---= -------------------
hist_text=20 list info:=20 = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
= usin

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax = Center=20 - File online. File on time. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C41428.DEF593E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Winter camp Date: 28 Mar 2004 09:42:47 EST --part1_63.29e310a1.2d983e67_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello in the camps I just got done posting some pictures and a short report on our last camp on my Web Site. I thought ya might enjoy having a look at them. http://members.tripod.com/gazingcyot/id22.htm See ya down the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_63.29e310a1.2d983e67_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello in the=20= camps
I just got done posting some pictures and a short report on our last cam= p on my Web Site. I thought ya might enjoy having a look at them.=20
http://members= .tripod.com/gazingcyot/id22.htm=20
See ya down the trail=20
Crazy Cyot --part1_63.29e310a1.2d983e67_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter camp Date: 28 Mar 2004 07:54:50 -0700 (MST) Crazy, Those are some great photo's! You must really like that snow! Heck of a web page! bb > Hello in the camps > I just got done posting some pictures and a short report on our last camp > on > my Web Site. I thought ya might enjoy having a look at them. > HREF="http://members.tripod.com/gazingcyot/id22.htm">http://members.tripod.com/gazingcyot/id22.htm > See ya down the trail > Crazy Cyot > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: boat dragging Date: 28 Mar 2004 09:18:35 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C414A5.A582AB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At a writers conference yesterday I got into a discussion with some = writers about historical fiction. One mentioned once reading a book that = involved dragging a large boat (keelboat possibly) across the desert out = west. In the same story he read what had to be the famous incident where = Hugh Glass was abandoned by Jim Bridger after a grizz mauling. But the boat dragging across many miles of wilderness is something I = had never heard about. Is there any factual basis for this story? Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C414A5.A582AB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    At a writers conference yesterday I got into a=20 discussion with some writers about historical fiction. One mentioned = once=20 reading a book that involved dragging a large boat (keelboat possibly) = across=20 the desert out west.

    In the same story he read what had to be the = famous=20 incident where Hugh Glass was abandoned by Jim Bridger after a = grizz=20 mauling.

    But the boat dragging across many miles of = wilderness is=20 something I had never heard about.

    Is there any factual basis for this story?

Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C414A5.A582AB20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Boyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Writers & their videos Date: 28 Mar 2004 09:08:24 -0800 (PST) --0-745423973-1080493704=:69528 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think Buck would agreed with you 100% Paul, he has shown a similar response on these men. There are a few that take advantage of their positions. Nate Paul Jones wrote: My involvement with Mark, Curry, and Wes had nothing to do with Clark & Sons or any other commercial enterprise. Mark, who I have known for some years, is a true gentleman, a great researcher, genuinely humble, and a fine fellow all around. Wes is likewise a good fellow and a fine craftsman. Curry, and this is merely a biased opinion, is not in the same league, but then as noted that is a personal view. Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 3:55 PM My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is very open minded. I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think these gentlemen haven't changed. True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are bothered. Nate > beaverboy > if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson > was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and > i'll give him dan's e-mail address-- > > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html usin Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-745423973-1080493704=:69528 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I think Buck would agreed with you 100% Paul, he has shown a similar response on these men. There are a few that take advantage of their positions.

Nate

Paul Jones <pwjones@myexcel.com> wrote:

My involvement with Mark, Curry, and Wes had nothing to do with Clark & Sons or any other commercial enterprise. Mark, who I have known for some years, is a true gentleman, a great researcher, genuinely humble, and a fine fellow all around. Wes is likewise a good fellow and a fine craftsman. Curry, and this is merely a biased opinion, is not in the same league, but then as noted that is a personal view.

Paul

----- Original Message -----

From: Nathan Boyer

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 3:55 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Writers & their videos

My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from time to time, Rex is very open minded.

I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would think these gentlemen haven't changed.

True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are bothered.

Nate

> beaverboy
> if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be burning---dan anderson
> was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and
> i'll give him dan's e-mail address--
>
> hawk
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
usin

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-745423973-1080493704=:69528-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Writers & their videos Date: 28 Mar 2004 13:21:58 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C414C7.A5EAEA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nathan, You are a wordsmith of the finest order. Or a diplomat, or both. Very = well put. Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nathan Boyer=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 11:08 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Writers & their videos I think Buck would agreed with you 100% Paul, he has shown a similar = response on these men. There are a few that take advantage of their = positions. Nate Paul Jones wrote: My involvement with Mark, Curry, and Wes had nothing to do with = Clark & Sons or any other commercial enterprise. Mark, who I have known = for some years, is a true gentleman, a great researcher, genuinely = humble, and a fine fellow all around. Wes is likewise a good fellow and = a fine craftsman. Curry, and this is merely a biased opinion, is not in = the same league, but then as noted that is a personal view. Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nathan Boyer=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 3:55 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Writers & their videos My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied Mark = Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for several = of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class = gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman he = really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting discussions from = time to time, Rex is very open minded. I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them when = he was running the same company a few years later or not, but would = think these gentlemen haven't changed. True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. = That must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are = bothered. Nate > beaverboy > if you see mark baker tell him his ears should be = burning---dan anderson > was talking about him--if he has e-mail have him contact me = offline and > i'll give him dan's e-mail address-- > > hawk > > = ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html usin=20 - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C414C7.A5EAEA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nathan,

You are a wordsmith of the finest = order. Or a=20 diplomat, or both. Very well put.

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nathan=20 Boyer
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 = 11:08=20 AM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Writers &=20 their videos

I think Buck would agreed with you 100% Paul, he has shown=20 a similar response on these men. There are a few that take = advantage of=20 their positions.

Nate

Paul Jones <pwjones@myexcel.com>=20 wrote:

My involvement with Mark, Curry, and Wes = had=20 nothing to do with Clark & Sons or any other commercial=20 enterprise. Mark, who I have known for some years, is a = true=20 gentleman, a great researcher, genuinely humble, and a fine fellow = all=20 around. Wes is likewise a good fellow and a fine = craftsman. =20 Curry, and this is merely a biased opinion, is not in the same = league, but=20 then as noted that is a personal view.

Paul

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Nathan=20 Boyer

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Saturday, March 27, = 2004 3:55=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Writers=20 & their videos

My cousin started Clark & Sons Mercantile and supplied = Mark=20 Baker, John Curry and Wes Houser with cook ware and edibles for = several=20 of their adventures. He felt that Mark and Wes were first class=20 gentlemen and has alway spoke highly of them. Another gentleman = he=20 really likes is Rex Norman, they have some interesting = discussions from=20 time to time, Rex is very open minded.

I don't know if Mr. Jones had the same experience with them = when he=20 was running the same company a few years later or not, but would = think=20 these gentlemen haven't changed.

True, there are still some good guys around if we just look. = That=20 must be hard to keep such positive attitudes as much as they are = bothered.

Nate

> beaverboy
> if you see mark baker = tell him=20 his ears should be burning---dan anderson
> was talking = about=20 him--if he has e-mail have him contact me offline and
> = i'll give=20 him dan's e-mail address--
>
> hawk
>
>=20 = ________________________________________________________________
> = The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno = SpeedBand!
>=20 Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month = - visit=20 www.juno.com to sign up today!
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>=20 ----------------------
> hist_text list info:=20 = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

---= -------------------
hist_text=20 list info:=20 = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
= usin=20

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax=20 Center - File online. File on=20 time.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax = Center=20 - File online. File on time. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C414C7.A5EAEA60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: boat dragging Date: 28 Mar 2004 14:00:21 -0800 Could they be referring to cutting the dogleg on the crook of the Missouri? I have read that this was not uncommon for those who made their way up that river late in the year when the water was low. It seems like dragging boats up the Missouri was pretty much like dragging boats through the desert at some seasons, anyhow. B'st'rd On Mar 28, 2004, at 7:18 AM, Frank Fusco wrote: > One mentioned once reading a book that involved dragging a large boat > (keelboat possibly) across the desert out west. > Is there any factual basis for this story? > Frank ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: boat dragging Date: 28 Mar 2004 23:30:50 EST --part1_9f.45815adb.2d99007a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank The book your write friend was talking about reading. Sound more like a movie that was out some years back I believe the name of the movie was "Man in the Wilderness." It stared Richard Harris It was loosely "real loosely" based supposedly on the Axander Henry expedition of 1820. Naturally Holly Wood did their best to mess up any facts they may have had on what went on. They did have some of the Hugh Glass story right he did get mauled by a bear and was left for dead and he did survive and after healing up did go looking for the ones that left him but that was about it. As for a keel boat being put on wheels and hauled all over the country I have never came across anything in my reading on this. I have read of wheels being put on dug outs for portaging around some places on the river. But a keel boat all over the country to avoid Indians I think NOT. Just my take on this. Crazy Cyot --part1_9f.45815adb.2d99007a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank
The book your write friend was talking about reading. Sound more like a=20= movie that was out some years back I believe the name of the movie was "Man=20= in the Wilderness." It stared Richard Harris It was loosely "real loosely" b= ased supposedly on the Axander Henry expedition of 1820. Naturally Holly Woo= d did their best to mess up any facts they may have had on what went on.
They did have some of the Hugh Glass story right he did get mauled by a=20= bear and was left for dead and he did survive and after healing up did go lo= oking for the ones that left him but that was about it.
As for a keel boat being put on wheels and hauled all over the country=20= I have never came across anything in my reading on this. I have read of whee= ls being put on dug outs for portaging around some places on the river. But=20= a keel boat all over the country to avoid Indians I think NOT.
Just my take on this.
Crazy Cyot
--part1_9f.45815adb.2d99007a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello the Camp I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should. My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on wilderness skills and tracking? Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello the Camp

I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr.

His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Ind= ian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you=20= should.

My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses h= e offers on wilderness skills and tracking?

Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd D Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 29 Mar 2004 20:36:40 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3e24.7dcd.2b6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, I have been a fan of Tom Brown Jr books for years. I've seen a few articles about him in outdoor magazines. His schools look interesting, but from what i hear, it's hard to get a class with him as the actual teacher anymore. Interesting website though. Teton On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST MarkLoader@aol.com writes: Hello the Camp I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should. My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on wilderness skills and tracking? Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849 ----__JNP_000_3e24.7dcd.2b6d Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,

I have been a fan of Tom Brown Jr books for years. I've seen a few = articles=20 about him in outdoor magazines.

His schools look interesting, but from what i hear, it's hard to get a= =20 class with him as the actual teacher anymore. Interesting website though.

Teton

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST MarkLoader@aol.com writes:

Hello the Camp

I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr.

His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the= =20 Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these = books you=20 should.

My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the = courses he=20 offers on wilderness skills and tracking?

Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849

----__JNP_000_3e24.7dcd.2b6d-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 30 Mar 2004 00:08:42 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C415EB.293CBA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark I learned a lot from the Tom Brown books and think his first, The = Tracker is a classic that all boys should be required to read before = they graduate from say 7th grade. With that being said, I always keep in mind that guys like this are = selling something. That doesn't make it all bad but it sometimes squews = their perspective. His whole story has been questioned but I tend to = think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For some of the other side of the story, you should read Incident at Big = Timber a story about the capture of a murderer in Montana. Tom is not = named but it is obviously him. Wynn Ormond =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 7:39 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Hello the Camp=20 I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr.=20 His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the = Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these = books you should.=20 My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he = offers on wilderness skills and tracking? Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849 ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C415EB.293CBA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark

I learned a lot from the Tom Brown books and think his first, The=20 Tracker is a classic that all boys should be required to read = before they=20 graduate from say 7th grade.

With that being said, I always keep in mind that guys like = this are=20 selling something. That doesn't make it all bad but it sometimes = squews=20 their perspective. His whole story has been questioned but I tend = to think=20 the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

For some of the other side of the story, you should read Incident = at Big=20 Timber a story about the capture of a murderer in Montana. Tom is = not=20 named but it is obviously him.

Wynn Ormond

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MarkLoader@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 = 7:39=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown = Jr.

Hello the Camp

I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. =

His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of = the=20 Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these = books you=20 should.

My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the = courses he=20 offers on wilderness skills and tracking?

Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM = #1849
------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C415EB.293CBA00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 30 Mar 2004 08:21:19 +0000
Don't waste your time. In survival skill circles the overall feeling is that while it all sounds good in theory, the courses are taught in a lecture sort of setting and very little hands on or actually practical application in a field setting. Tom Brown does have the fact that he is a good marketeer and has a following that spreads his class sign-ups. Most hard core survivalist, I know, who have been in the field for 30 years don't really think to much of Tom Brown. But you can't down a guy who knows how to make a living doing what he likes to do and knows how to market himself.

By the way, the new Tom Brown Tracker Knife made so popular by the movie, "The Hunted", may look really cool but is as unpractical a knife as any I've seen, and at $300.00 is a waste of money in my opinion.

Later,

Mike Powell, Poison River Booshway

AMM #1769
POISON RIVER PARTY
"Ride, Ride, Ride"

"Aux Aliments du Pays"!

>From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST > >Hello the Camp > >I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. >His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian >there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should. >My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on >wilderness skills and tracking? >Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849

Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Alamo Date: 30 Mar 2004 11:52:38 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C4164D.7F891680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A friend of mine, Taylor Anderson, worked for the duration of the = filming of the Alamo movie, both as an extra and as a weapons/cannon = expert (he is probably the finest period rifle and pistol maker in Texas = at present and his knowledge of period firearms if beyond compare). His = opinion is to be trusted. Thought some of you might be going to this movie, so I thought is = appropriate to share Taylor's thoughts with you. Paul Howdy, all. I went to Austin for the Cast and Crew screening of The = Alamo last night. A good time was had by all and I got to visit with = good folks again. Mainly, though, YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE THIS FILM!!! = They cut out a LOT of stuff, including a lot of scenes of me! (how rude) = , but it is still outstanding. If you were in this movie, you WILL be = seen. (sometimes more than some of the 'stars' whose storylines went = away during the cut). The bomb gag is still there, but it has been = slightly modified so that it is not quite as egregious--a point that I = still felt compelled to thank and harrass John Lee about--He took my = comments sheepishly, but then I went on to congratulate him for = EVERYTHING else! I am pretty tickled. So many people worked so hard = and so long, and they will feel the vindication of a job well done! Taylor ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C4164D.7F891680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A friend of mine, Taylor Anderson, worked = for the=20 duration of the filming of the Alamo movie, both as an extra and as a=20 weapons/cannon expert (he is probably the finest period rifle and pistol = maker=20 in Texas at present and his knowledge of period firearms if beyond=20 compare). His opinion is to be trusted.

Thought some of you might be going to this = movie, so I=20 thought is appropriate to share Taylor's thoughts with=20 you.

Paul

Howdy, all. I went to Austin for the Cast and Crew screening = of The=20 Alamo last night. A good time was had by all and I got to visit = with good=20 folks again. Mainly, though, YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE THIS=20 FILM!!!   They cut out a LOT of stuff, including a lot of = scenes of=20 me! (how rude) , but it is still outstanding. If you were in this = movie,=20 you WILL be seen. (sometimes more than some of the 'stars' whose=20 storylines went away during the cut). The bomb gag is still there, = but it=20 has been slightly modified so that it is not quite as egregious--a point = that I=20 still felt compelled to thank and harrass John Lee about--He took my = comments=20 sheepishly, but then I went on to congratulate him for EVERYTHING = else! I=20 am pretty tickled. So many people worked so hard and so long, and = they=20 will feel the vindication of a job well done!

Taylor
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C4164D.7F891680-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 30 Mar 2004 13:41:27 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike I was hoping you would respond. You have a lot of exposure to this subject and I want your opinion. The movie was a disappointment to say the least too much Hollywood. The DVD had some extras that were well worth the time. What got me interested is his latest book Case Files of a Tracker. In it is a 1999 case he calls Cougar Canyon. In reading it. I was obvious it was the true story of a boy lost four years ago west of Fort Collins, Colo. were I live. Recently the boy remains were found and what was found matched the prediction of one of Tom's trackers to a tee. High in the rocks near the trail but out of view were found the 3 year old tennis shoes, part of his skull, a tooth and some of his cloths. More cloths were found than he predicted. Tom and his tracker come on the scene 9 days after the boy was lost and search had been suspended. They found his tracks after that time lapse and all the search traffic. Told where a searcher with dog had followed the trail and the searcher did not notice the dog picking up the sent. Where the boy had crossed the river and thrown rocks into it and where the Mountain Lion had started stalking while the searches were on the other side of the river. The also determined he could not hear there calls because of the river noise. Much of this has be supported by the local paper. A lot of his experiences do seam for fetched and not understandable by the average man. But if I would think the people that he came in contact with during his development would come forward i.e. teachers, scout master and some of the people he has found a live. I am considering taking his basic course next year to check it out. So if anyone has personal experience with his school let me know. Thanks Roadkill Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike I was hoping you would respond. You have a lot of exposure to this= subject and I want your opinion. The movie was a disappointment to say the=20= least too much Hollywood. The DVD had some extras that were well worth the t= ime.

What got me interested is his latest book Case Files of a Tracker.
In it is a 1999 case he calls Cougar Canyon. In reading it. I was=20= obvious it was the true story of a boy lost four years ago west of Fort Coll= ins, Colo. were I live. Recently the boy remains were found and what was fou= nd matched the prediction of one of Tom's trackers to a tee. High in the roc= ks near the trail but out of view were found the 3 year old tennis shoes, pa= rt of his skull, a tooth and some of his cloths. More cloths were found than= he predicted. Tom and his tracker come on the scene 9 days after the boy wa= s lost and search had been suspended. They found his tracks after that time=20= lapse and all the search traffic. Told where a searcher with dog had followe= d the trail and the searcher did not notice the dog picking up the sent. Whe= re the boy had crossed the river and thrown rocks into it and where the Moun= tain Lion had started stalking while the searches were on the other side of=20= the river. The also determined he could not hear there calls because of the=20= river noise. Much of this has be supported by the local paper.

A lot of his experiences do seam for fetched and not understandable by=20= the average man. But if I would think the people that he came in contact wit= h during his development would come forward i.e. teachers, scout master and=20= some of the people he has found a live.

I am considering taking his basic course next year to check it out= . So if anyone has personal experience with his school let me know.

Thanks Roadkill

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 30 Mar 2004 19:13:08 +0000
Mark,

There is a man in your area, Grand Junction, who teaches survival skills and tracking and you would be better off to take one of his courses. He has property not far from the AMM property where he teaches, though he lives in Grand Junction. His name is Mel DeWeese and he goes by "Mountain Mel". He is a good personal friend of mine and he has travelled the world over teaching survival skills and will get you out in the field. Mention my name and tell him that I referred you. Contact him at, 970-242-8507 or e-mail at mtnmel@youwillsurvive.com

Believe me, this guy has forgotten more than I will ever know about survival and is a wealth of knowledge.  Plus as an added bonus has some of the greatest stories you have ever heard and is a kick in the pants with his wit and sense of humor.  Being an ol' military man he loves to kick back a few beers and swap lies.

I missed a chance to go with him last year to the Amazon. (no fundage) He always invites me to go and tells me waht went on with the natives. An Awesome Guy!

Later,

Mike Powell

AMM #1769
POISON RIVER PARTY
"Ride, Ride, Ride"
"Aux Aliments du Pays"! >From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. >Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:41:27 EST > >Mike I was hoping you would respond. You have a lot of exposure to this >subject and I want your opinion. The movie was a disappointment to say the least >too much Hollywood. The DVD had some extras that were well worth the time. >What got me interested is his latest book Case Files of a Tracker. >In it is a 1999 case he calls Cougar Canyon. In reading it. I was obvious it >was the true story of a boy lost four years ago west of Fort Collins, Colo. >were I live. Recently the boy remains were found and what was found matched the >prediction of one of Tom's trackers to a tee. High in the rocks near the trail >but out of view were found the 3 year old tennis shoes, part of his skull, a >tooth and some of his cloths. More cloths were found than he predicted. Tom >and his tracker come on the scene 9 days after the boy was lost and search had >been suspended. They found his tracks after that time lapse and all the search >traffic. Told where a searcher with dog had followed the trail and the >searcher did not notice the dog picking up the sent. Where the boy had crossed the >river and thrown rocks into it and where the Mountain Lion had started stalking >while the searches were on the other side of the river. The also determined he >could not hear there calls because of the river noise. Much of this has be >supported by the local paper. > >A lot of his experiences do seam for fetched and not understandable by the >average man. But if I would think the people that he came in contact with during >his development would come forward i.e. teachers, scout master and some of >the people he has found a live. > >I am considering taking his basic course next year to check it out. So if >anyone has personal experience with his school let me know. >Thanks Roadkill

Get tax tips, tools and access to IRS forms � all in one place at MSN Money! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 30 Mar 2004 13:57:48 -0600 --=====================_11257348==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Right on. I took a coupla classes back in the early 80's and would have been better off reading some good books and practicing what I read. I was young and dumb in those days, and had more money than sense. Mike described the curriculum correctly. Lots of lecture with little hands on, and some of those exercises aren't all that educational. Not to mention all the BS he calls Native American philosophy. It's new age religion BS pure and simple. Better to save your money and simply hang out with folks who know what they are doing. I saw the prototype for the "tracker knife" at one of the classes, and had the same thoughts about the practicality of the knife. IMHO, Brown is a better marketer than he is a survival instructor. J.D. >Don't waste your time. In survival skill circles the overall feeling is >that while it all sounds good in theory, the courses are taught in a >lecture sort of setting and very little hands on or actually practical >application in a field setting. Tom Brown does have the fact that he is a >good marketeer and has a following that spreads his class sign-ups. Most >hard core survivalist, I know, who have been in the field for 30 years >don't really think to much of Tom Brown. But you can't down a guy who >knows how to make a living doing what he likes to do and knows how to >market himself. > >By the way, the new Tom Brown Tracker Knife made so popular by the movie, >"The Hunted", may look really cool but is as unpractical a knife as any >I've seen, and at $300.00 is a waste of money in my opinion. > >Later, > >Mike Powell, Poison River Booshway >AMM #1769 >POISON RIVER PARTY >"Ride, Ride, Ride" > >"Aux Aliments du Pays"! > > >From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: > hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. >Date: > Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST > >Hello the Camp > >I have been reading > several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. >His experience and knowledge > are in line with the live style of the Indian >there for the Mountainman. > If you have not read some of these books you should. >My question is: Has > anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on >wilderness > skills and tracking? >Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849 > > >---------- >Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to >help ensure your PC is protected and safe. ---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --=====================_11257348==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Right on.
I took a coupla classes back in the early 80's and would have been better off reading some good books and practicing what I read.

I was young and dumb in those days, and had more money than sense.

Mike described the curriculum correctly. Lots of lecture with little hands on, and some of those exercises aren't all that educational. Not to mention all the BS he calls Native American philosophy.
It's new age religion BS pure and simple.

Better to save your money and simply hang out with folks who know what they are doing.

I saw the prototype for the "tracker knife" at one of the classes, and had the same thoughts about the practicality of the knife. IMHO, Brown is a better marketer than he is a survival instructor.

J.D.

Don't waste your time. In survival skill circles the overall feeling is that while it all sounds good in theory, the courses are taught in a lecture sort of setting and very little hands on or actually practical application in a field setting. Tom Brown does have the fact that he is a good marketeer and has a following that spreads his class sign-ups. Most hard core survivalist, I know, who have been in the field for 30 years don't really think to much of Tom Brown. But you can't down a guy who knows how to make a living doing what he likes to do and knows how to market himself.

By the way, the new Tom Brown Tracker Knife made so popular by the movie, "The Hunted", may look really cool but is as unpractical a knife as any I've seen, and at $300.00 is a waste of money in my opinion.

Later,

Mike Powell, Poison River Booshway
AMM #1769
POISON RIVER PARTY
"Ride, Ride, Ride"

"Aux Aliments du Pays"!

>From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST > >Hello the Camp > >I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. >His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian >there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should. >My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on >wilderness skills and tracking? >Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849

Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
--=====================_11257348==.ALT-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 30 Mar 2004 20:33:07 +0000
Thank you John,

I forgot to include that my good friend, Mtn. Mel, once had bumper stickers made that said, "Real survival instruction saves lives, No mystical B.S., Please"! This was in response to all the Tom Brown hype.

Later,

Mike

AMM #1769
POISON RIVER PARTY
"Ride, Ride, Ride"
"Aux Aliments du Pays"! >From: John Dearing <jdearing@brick.net> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. >Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:57:48 -0600 > >Right on. >I took a coupla classes back in the early 80's and would have been >better off reading some good books and practicing what I read. > >I was young and dumb in those days, and had more money than sense. > > Mike described the curriculum correctly. Lots of lecture with >little hands on, and some of those exercises aren't all that >educational. Not to mention all the BS he calls Native American >philosophy. >It's new age religion BS pure and simple. > >Better to save your money and simply hang out with folks who know >what they are doing. > >I saw the prototype for the "tracker knife" at one of the classes, >and had the same thoughts about the practicality of the knife. IMHO, >Brown is a better marketer than he is a survival instructor. > >J.D. > >>Don't waste your time. In survival skill circles the overall >>feeling is that while it all sounds good in theory, the courses are >>taught in a lecture sort of setting and very little hands on or >>actually practical application in a field setting. Tom Brown does >>have the fact that he is a good marketeer and has a following that >>spreads his class sign-ups. Most hard core survivalist, I know, >>who have been in the field for 30 years don't really think to much >>of Tom Brown. But you can't down a guy who knows how to make a >>living doing what he likes to do and knows how to market himself. >> >>By the way, the new Tom Brown Tracker Knife made so popular by the >>movie, "The Hunted", may look really cool but is as unpractical a >>knife as any I've seen, and at $300.00 is a waste of money in my >>opinion. >> >>Later, >> >>Mike Powell, Poison River Booshway >>AMM #1769 >>POISON RIVER PARTY >>"Ride, Ride, Ride" >> >>"Aux Aliments du Pays"! >> >> >From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Tom Brown >>Jr. >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:39:55 EST > >Hello the Camp > >I >>have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. >His >>experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the >>Indian >there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of >>these books you should. >My question is: Has anyone in the group >>taken any of the courses he offers on >wilderness skills and >>tracking? >Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849 >> >> >>---------- >><http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2749??PS=>Check out MSN PC Safety & >>Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. >>---------------------- hist_text list info: >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "tom" Subject: MtMan-List: the alamo and history channel special Date: 30 Mar 2004 16:04:54 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I personally am looking forward to seeing the Alamo. I have a profound respect for Texans and their struggle for independence. I'll bet all you Texas brothers are "stoked" i saw a special on the history channel last night about davey crocket and Daniel boone, I thought i saw mark baker playing davey crocked????? I've never noticed before but baker looks an awful lot like Crocket. i also watched another special on the filming of the movie and Billy Bob Thornton mentioned something about the on set re enactors. he said he was a little intimidated when he would come out of his trailer in the morning sipping a cappuccino and would see the re enactors bathing in the creek having slept outside all night. just some thoughts, Tom AMM # 1834 PRP ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 3/30/2004 11:27:40 AM A friend of mine, Taylor Anderson, worked for the duration of the filming of the Alamo movie, both as an extra and as a weapons/cannon expert (he is probably the finest period rifle and pistol maker in Texas at present and his knowledge of period firearms if beyond compare). His opinion is to be trusted. Thought some of you might be going to this movie, so I thought is appropriate to share Taylor's thoughts with you. Paul Howdy, all. I went to Austin for the Cast and Crew screening of The Alamo last night. A good time was had by all and I got to visit with good folks again. Mainly, though, YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE THIS FILM!!! They cut out a LOT of stuff, including a lot of scenes of me! (how rude) , but it is still outstanding. If you were in this movie, you WILL be seen. (sometimes more than some of the 'stars' whose storylines went away during the cut). The bomb gag is still there, but it has been slightly modified so that it is not quite as egregious--a point that I still felt compelled to thank and harrass John Lee about--He took my comments sheepishly, but then I went on to congratulate him for EVERYTHING else! I am pretty tickled. So many people worked so hard and so long, and they will feel the vindication of a job well done! Taylor ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I personally am looking forward to seeing the Alamo. I have a profound respect for Texans and their struggle for independence. I'll bet all you Texas brothers are "stoked"

i saw a special on the history channel last night about davey crocket and Daniel boone, I thought i saw mark baker playing davey crocked????? I've never noticed before but baker looks an awful lot like Crocket.   i also watched another special on the filming of the movie and Billy Bob Thornton mentioned something about the on set re enactors. he said he was a little intimidated when he would come out of his trailer in the morning sipping a cappuccino and would see the re enactors bathing in the creek having slept outside all night.

just some thoughts, Tom AMM # 1834 PRP

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Jones

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Sent: 3/30/2004 11:27:40 AM

Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Alamo

A friend of mine, Taylor Anderson, worked for the duration of the filming of the Alamo movie, both as an extra and as a weapons/cannon expert (he is probably the finest period rifle and pistol maker in Texas at present and his knowledge of period firearms if beyond compare). His opinion is to be trusted.

Thought some of you might be going to this movie, so I thought is appropriate to share Taylor's thoughts with you.

Paul

Howdy, all. I went to Austin for the Cast and Crew screening of The Alamo last night. A good time was had by all and I got to visit with good folks again. Mainly, though, YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE THIS FILM!!!   They cut out a LOT of stuff, including a lot of scenes of me! (how rude) , but it is still outstanding. If you were in this movie, you WILL be seen. (sometimes more than some of the 'stars' whose storylines went away during the cut). The bomb gag is still there, but it has been slightly modified so that it is not quite as egregious--a point that I still felt compelled to thank and harrass John Lee about--He took my comments sheepishly, but then I went on to congratulate him for EVERYTHING else! I am pretty tickled. So many people worked so hard and so long, and they will feel the vindication of a job well done!

Taylor
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the alamo and history channel special Date: 30 Mar 2004 17:58:03 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0197_01C41680.8BFAA220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, "Stoked" is a fair description, at least in some quarters. It is = impossible to get everyone to agree with the "facts," but all are = hopeful that this version will do a fair job of telling it (what = happened) as close as this distance in time can allow. I also saw the = History Channel special last evening, and Thornton, who, like Mark = Baker, does look a lot like Crockett, at least according to some = drawings and paintings from that era, did impress me as a person who was = "taken" with how realistic the set and efforts to get it right were for = this movie. Several of my friends who were on the set when he was = performing say that it was amazing to them to watch him switch from = regular guy to "Crockett" in a flash, and how realistically he portrayed = what they thought Crockett would have really been like. I have been to = the set, and it is truly amazing. First it is huge, they literally = tried to recreate San Antonio as it existed in 1836. It looks and feels = "right." The Church, San Fernando as I recall, is closer (for filming = purposes) than it was (and remains), but otherwise, they did a first = rate job in trying to make it look correct. So I hope the popcorn is ready on the 9th, because with or without my = wife's permission, I am hiding from all Honey-do or work necessities and = going to the first showing. =20 Regards, Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: tom=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:04 PM Subject: MtMan-List: the alamo and history channel special I personally am looking forward to seeing the Alamo. I have a = profound respect for Texans and their struggle for independence. I'll = bet all you Texas brothers are "stoked" =20 i saw a special on the history channel last night about davey crocket = and Daniel boone, I thought i saw mark baker playing davey crocked????? = I've never noticed before but baker looks an awful lot like Crocket. i = also watched another special on the filming of the movie and Billy Bob = Thornton mentioned something about the on set re enactors. he said he = was a little intimidated when he would come out of his trailer in the = morning sipping a cappuccino and would see the re enactors bathing in = the creek having slept outside all night. =20 just some thoughts, Tom AMM # 1834 PRP ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul Jones=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sent: 3/30/2004 11:27:40 AM=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Alamo A friend of mine, Taylor Anderson, worked for the duration of the = filming of the Alamo movie, both as an extra and as a weapons/cannon = expert (he is probably the finest period rifle and pistol maker in Texas = at present and his knowledge of period firearms if beyond compare). His = opinion is to be trusted. Thought some of you might be going to this movie, so I thought is = appropriate to share Taylor's thoughts with you. Paul Howdy, all. I went to Austin for the Cast and Crew screening of The = Alamo last night. A good time was had by all and I got to visit with = good folks again. Mainly, though, YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE THIS FILM!!! = They cut out a LOT of stuff, including a lot of scenes of me! (how rude) = , but it is still outstanding. If you were in this movie, you WILL be = seen. (sometimes more than some of the 'stars' whose storylines went = away during the cut). The bomb gag is still there, but it has been = slightly modified so that it is not quite as egregious--a point that I = still felt compelled to thank and harrass John Lee about--He took my = comments sheepishly, but then I went on to congratulate him for = EVERYTHING else! I am pretty tickled. So many people worked so hard = and so long, and they will feel the vindication of a job well done! Taylor ------=_NextPart_000_0197_01C41680.8BFAA220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,

"Stoked" is a fair = description, at=20 least in some quarters. It is impossible to get everyone to agree = with the=20 "facts," but all are hopeful that this version will do a fair job of = telling it=20 (what happened) as close as this distance in time can allow. I = also saw=20 the History Channel special last evening, and Thornton, who, like Mark = Baker,=20 does look a lot like Crockett, at least according to some drawings and = paintings=20 from that era, did impress me as a person who was "taken" with how = realistic the=20 set and efforts to get it right were for this movie. Several of my = friends=20 who were on the set when he was performing say that it was amazing to = them to=20 watch him switch from regular guy to "Crockett" in a flash, and how=20 realistically he portrayed what they thought Crockett would have really = been=20 like. I have been to the set, and it is truly amazing. First = it is=20 huge, they literally tried to recreate San Antonio as it existed in = 1836. =20 It looks and feels "right." The Church, San Fernando as I recall, = is=20 closer (for filming purposes) than it was (and remains), but otherwise, = they did=20 a first rate job in trying to make it look = correct.

So I hope the popcorn is = ready on the=20 9th, because with or without my wife's permission, I am hiding from all = Honey-do=20 or work necessities and going to the first showing. =

Regards,

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 tom

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 = 5:04=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: the alamo = and=20 history channel special

I personally am looking forward to seeing the Alamo. I have = a=20 profound respect for Texans and their struggle for independence. = I'll=20 bet all you Texas brothers are "stoked"

i saw a special on the history channel last night about davey = crocket and=20 Daniel boone, I thought i saw mark baker playing davey = crocked????? I've=20 never noticed before but baker looks an awful lot like = Crocket.   i=20 also watched another special on the filming of the movie and Billy Bob = Thornton mentioned something about the on set re enactors. he = said he=20 was a little intimidated when he would come out of his trailer in the = morning=20 sipping a cappuccino and would see the re enactors bathing in the = creek having=20 slept outside all night.

just some thoughts, Tom AMM # 1834 PRP

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul=20 Jones
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=

Sent: 3/30/2004 11:27:40 AM =

Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: = Alamo

A friend of mine, Taylor Anderson, = worked for the=20 duration of the filming of the Alamo movie, both as an extra and as = a=20 weapons/cannon expert (he is probably the finest period rifle and = pistol=20 maker in Texas at present and his knowledge of period firearms if = beyond=20 compare). His opinion is to be trusted.

Thought some of you might be going to = this movie,=20 so I thought is appropriate to share Taylor's thoughts with=20 you.

Paul

Howdy, all. I went to Austin for the Cast and Crew = screening of=20 The Alamo last night. A good time was had by all and I got to = visit=20 with good folks again. Mainly, though, YOU ARE GOING TO LIKE = THIS=20 FILM!!!   They cut out a LOT of stuff, including a lot of = scenes=20 of me! (how rude) , but it is still outstanding. If you were = in this=20 movie, you WILL be seen. (sometimes more than some of the = 'stars'=20 whose storylines went away during the cut). The bomb gag is = still=20 there, but it has been slightly modified so that it is not quite as=20 egregious--a point that I still felt compelled to thank and harrass = John Lee=20 about--He took my comments sheepishly, but then I went on to = congratulate=20 him for EVERYTHING else! I am pretty tickled. So many = people=20 worked so hard and so long, and they will feel the vindication of a = job well=20 done!

Taylor
------=_NextPart_000_0197_01C41680.8BFAA220-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 30 Mar 2004 19:59:27 EST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Mike I have seen pictures of the knife and could not how it would be practical. He states in his information that if you are looking for hard core survival his is not the one. Checked out Mountain Mel's web site looks interesting. Does make me wonder about anyone that would use Mountain Mel as a handle. Right now I am just checking things out. Are there any discussion groups on survival? Thanks Mark Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Mike I have seen pictures of the knife and could not how it woul= d be practical.

He states in his information that if you are looking for hard core= survival his is not the one.

Checked out Mountain Mel's web site looks interesting. Does make me won= der about anyone that would use Mountain Mel as a handle.

Right now I am just checking things out. Are there any discussion group= s on survival?

Thanks Mark
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Offutt Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 30 Mar 2004 20:14:02 -0800 (PST) --0-1254931291-1080706442=:86506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I can offer a firsthand impression of the current tracker school experience. The standard class, required before taking any other classes, is heavily lecture based. The class is an attempt to provide students with all of the information they need to learn the skills necessary to survive in most environments without any modern gear if need be. There are some hands on skills taught, however to cover all of the material that way would take much longer than a week. In fact the estimate for how long you would need to practice just the skills covered in the standard to reach a point of mastery is about 10 years. The class gives everyone an equal basis of knowledge to prepare them for the more advanced classes. It is up to you to actually practice the stuff once you get home. Many people choose not to. This is perhaps one of the reasons some feel that tracker students don't learn much that is useful. That is a reflection on the individual students, not the school. The comment about not being about hard core survival is regarding how you actually live while most of the classes, not the skills taught.You do not hike miles each day and live as if in a full survival situation. They can provide you with more information by not doing those things. I went to the standard last spring with a pretty good understanding of the basics of the skills taught. I figured it would be mostly just something to get out of the way in order to take more advanced classes. What I found however, was that although a large portion of the material was not new to me, I picked up on some of the more subtle aspects that make the things work so much better than just following directions in a book. Tom does not teach much, or sometimes I understand, any of the standard class. He does have excellent instructors, who are always willing to make sure that you get the most out of the experience. The tracking portion covers basicly everything in the Field Guide to Nature Observation and Tracking as well as The Art and Science of Tracking, plus some extra stuff you really have to take the class for. The advanced standard is biased the other way towards hands on experience learning how to make the various items needed for survival such as shelter, containers, tools for hunting, etc. You could never finish in class all of the projects that you start. Again there are tips and tricks I have not seen in print, and having someone to help you while learning saves considerable time and unnecessary mistakes. In addition, a number of traps not in books are presented, although it is up to you to actually practice them at home. Advanced camo and movement are presented and a demo of military camo vs what you are taught is done which really points out the limitations of the military stuff. Tom does teach part of the class. The final class which I can comment on is advanced tracking. This class had the most lecture by Tom of the three. It is very intense, with none of the material from the standard repeated. Most time is devoted to actually tracking in a variety of difficult conditions. The first day we tracked yearling deer in pine straw, week old trails which the deer used repeatedly. It can be sort of difficult to stay on the correct trail, but after passing by the same area a few days later, the tracks just about lept out. You really reprogram your brain to see tracks almost everyone else would miss. Pick tracking in debris and scrape tracking in sand are covered which allow you to find tracks which are years old. The easiest tracking was the last night. We tracked day old fox trails in pine needles at night. Being able to position the light source, plus having tracked in the other more difficult soils made it a breeze. The quality of the insruction at present is very good and beyond the advanced standard, you will not find the material in the other classes in a book. In fact, virtually nothing presented in the advanced tracking class could be effectivly taught without actual student / instructor interaction. Prior to going to the Tracker School, I studied and practiced from books, Toms and others, for years. I think that the school is a very effective way to learn the material in significantly less time than it would take using just books. You also then gain the option of going on to other more advanced classes which teach things not found in any book. The skills have all proven effective for me so far. Realize what the class is and what it isn't. Go with an open mind. Tom says to prove him right or prove him wrong, just get off your ass and get some dirt time. When Kevin says to take a good look at the ground because you will never see it in the same way again in an hour, realize that he is not trying to be dramatic, you really will look at things differently. You will have taken the first small step towards seeing the world through the eyes of a master tracker. As far as the knife goes, I don't plan to get one either. I think it is supposed to do too many things, and doesn't do any of them well. I'll be happy to answer any questions on or off list. Nathan Offutt MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: Hello the Camp I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr. His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should. My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on wilderness skills and tracking? Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849 Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-1254931291-1080706442=:86506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I can offer a firsthand impression of the current tracker school experience. The standard class, required before taking any other classes, is heavily lecture based. The class is an attempt to provide students with all of the information they need to learn the skills necessary to survive in most environments without any modern gear if need be. There are some hands on skills taught, however to cover all of the material that way would take much longer than a week. In fact the estimate for how long you would need to practice just the skills covered in the standard to reach a point of mastery is about 10 years. The class gives everyone an equal basis of knowledge to prepare them for the more advanced classes. It is up to you to actually practice the stuff once you get home. Many people choose not to. This is perhaps one of the reasons some feel that tracker students don't learn much that is useful. That is a reflection on the individual students, not the school. The comment about not being about hard core survival is regarding how you actually live while most of the classes, not the skills taught.You do not hike miles each day and live as if in a full survival situation. They can provide you with more information by not doing those things. I went to the standard last spring with a pretty good understanding of the basics of the skills taught. I figured it would be mostly just something to get out of the way in order to take more advanced classes. What I found however, was that although a large portion of the material was not new to me, I picked up on some of the more subtle aspects that make the things work so much better than just following directions in a book. Tom does not teach much, or sometimes I understand, any of the standard class. He does have excellent instructors, who are always willing to make sure that you get the most out of the experience. The tracking portion covers basicly everything in the Field Guide to Nature Observation and Tracking as well as The Art and Science of Tracking, plus some extra stuff you really have to take the class for. The advanced standard is biased the other way towards hands on experience learning how to make the various items needed for survival such as shelter, containers, tools for hunting, etc. You could never finish in class all of the projects that you start. Again there are tips and tricks I have not seen in print, and having someone to help you while learning saves considerable time and unnecessary mistakes. In addition, a number of traps not in books are presented, although it is up to you to actually practice them at home. Advanced camo and movement are presented and a demo of military camo vs what you are taught is done which really points out the limitations of the military stuff. Tom does teach part of the class. The final class which I can comment on is advanced tracking. This class had the most lecture by Tom of the three. It is very intense, with none of the material from the standard repeated. Most time is devoted to actually tracking in a variety of difficult conditions. The first day we tracked yearling deer in pine straw, week old trails which the deer used repeatedly. It can be sort of difficult to stay on the correct trail, but after passing by the same area a few days later, the tracks just about lept out. You really reprogram your brain to see tracks almost everyone else would miss. Pick tracking in debris and scrape tracking in sand are covered which allow you to find tracks which are years old. The easiest tracking was the last night. We tracked day old fox trails in pine needles at night. Being able to position the light source, plus having tracked in the other more difficult soils made it a breeze. The quality of the insruction at present is very good and beyond the advanced standard, you will not find the material in the other classes in a book. In fact, virtually nothing presented in the advanced tracking class could be effectivly taught without actual student / instructor interaction. Prior to going to the Tracker School, I studied and practiced from books, Toms and others, for years. I think that the school is a very effective way to learn the material in significantly less time than it would take using just books. You also then gain the option of going on to other more advanced classes which teach things not found in any book. The skills have all proven effective for me so far. Realize what the class is and what it isn't. Go with an open mind. Tom says to prove him right or prove him wrong, just get off your ass and get some dirt time. When Kevin says to take a good look at the ground because you will never see it in the same way again in an hour, realize that he is not trying to be dramatic, you really will look at things differently. You will have taken the first small step towards seeing the world through the eyes of a master tracker. As far as the knife goes, I don't plan to get one either. I think it is supposed to do too many things, and doesn't do any of them well. I'll be happy to answer any questions on or off list.

Nathan Offutt

MarkLoader@aol.com wrote:

Hello the Camp

I have been reading several books by and about Tom Brown, Jr.

His experience and knowledge are in line with the live style of the Indian there for the Mountainman. If you have not read some of these books you should.

My question is: Has anyone in the group taken any of the courses he offers on wilderness skills and tracking?

Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader AMM #1849
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --0-1254931291-1080706442=:86506-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tom Brown Jr. Date: 31 Mar 2004 12:42:41 EST --part1_f6.38a5fce7.2d9c5d11_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Nathan Your comments are about I would expect the standard class would be. Cover the basics in many areas so that all the students have a good foundation to go on to more advances in other areas. Tom has 27 other courses to choose from some have prerequisites besides the standard course. I like you have many (more than most) survival skills. I was once complement and asked for impute on friction fire building by John McPherson. What courses did you take? Thanks again I hope I get more feed back. Mark Loader #1849 --part1_f6.38a5fce7.2d9c5d11_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Nathan
Your comments are about I would expect the standard class would be. Cove= r the basics in many areas so that all the students have a good foundation t= o go on to more advances in other areas. Tom has 27 other courses to choose=20= from some have prerequisites besides the standard course. I like you have ma= ny (more than most) survival skills. I was once complement and asked for imp= ute on friction fire building by John McPherson. What courses did you take?
Thanks again I hope I get more feed back.
Mark Loader #1849 --part1_f6.38a5fce7.2d9c5d11_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Boyer Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Auction Date: 31 Mar 2004 20:27:04 -0800 (PST) --0-940441781-1080793624=:73034 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mr. Jones, Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line. Thanks Paul. Nate. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today --0-940441781-1080793624=:73034 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Mr. Jones,

Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.

Thanks Paul.

Nate.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today --0-940441781-1080793624=:73034-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: AMM Auction Date: 31 Mar 2004 20:52:28 -0800 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nathan, Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the original pics direct to you. They got diluted in the transfer, posting etc.... Randy ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 3/31/04 8:27:44 PM Mr. Jones, Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line. Thanks Paul. Nate. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Nathan,   Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the original pics direct to you. They got diluted in the transfer, posting etc....   Randy

----- Original Message -----

From: Nathan Boyer

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Sent: 3/31/04 8:27:44 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Auction

Mr. Jones,

Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.

Thanks Paul.

Nate.

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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: AMM Auction Date: 31 Mar 2004 20:57:29 -0800 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ooops.... my address usually appears automatically..... rjbublitz@earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 3/31/04 8:44:24 PM Nathan, Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the original pics direct to you. They got diluted in the transfer, posting etc.... Randy ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 3/31/04 8:27:44 PM Mr. Jones, Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line. Thanks Paul. Nate. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
ooops.... my address usually appears automatically.....

rjbublitz@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----

From: Randal Bublitz

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Sent: 3/31/04 8:44:24 PM

Subject: RE: MtMan-List: AMM Auction

Nathan,   Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you the original pics direct to you. They got diluted in the transfer, posting etc....   Randy

----- Original Message -----

From: Nathan Boyer

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Sent: 3/31/04 8:27:44 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Auction

Mr. Jones,

Question; How nice are the leg ties and razor box in the 1st auction and in 2 nd auction the elk leg bag? The pictures make them look nice, just wondering how nice as you donated them. Asked Buck, he said he hasn't seen them as they went straight to Randy, but felt if they were from you they were top of the line.

Thanks Paul.

Nate.

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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Your document:	MtMan-List: Vidoes
was received by:	Bob Tannehil/St Louis/IBM
at:	03/25/2004 14:38:33 CST

Your document:	RE: MtMan-List: Vidoes
was received by:	Bob Tannehil/St Louis/IBM
at:	03/26/2004 07:20:08 CST